Lighting upgrade for amateur dramatic group

[richa]

Hi all,

 

Long time reader, first time poster needing some advice...

 

I manage the lighting and sound equipment for an amateur dramatic group in Winchester, and I want to upgrade it all, starting with lighting.

 

We currently have 2 x Strand Mini2+ dimmers (no laughing please!) on 2 x 32 Amp circuits and a Strand LX12 console. I currently have no DMX experience, so am reluctant to just buy new equipment without first understanding if I am making the right choice.

 

We currently have conventional fixtures (Fresnel, PC, Profile, PAR), but with DMX I would then look to buy some colour LED PARs. It is unlikely that we would use moving heads. I want to get to a point where I can program the show and have someone else operate so that I do not have to operate every show we do, and it should be easy enough for someone else to get some basic illumination onto the stage when I'm not there.

 

My provisional shopping list is 2 x Strand 6 Pack dimmers and a Strand 200+ 12/24 console. I chose this console because it says support 12 LED lights and devices such as a smoke machine. Am I heading in the right direction with these choices?

 

Budget at the moment is about £2k (this does not include buying LED PARs).

 

Is it a good idea to get myself on lighting course to learn about DMX? I spoke to Stage Electrics about their Lighting Design and DMX courses, but they don't run 'public' courses anymore, so I will be interested in anyone knows of other companies that offer training for individuals.

 

Thanks,

Richard.

[MarkB]

Hi Richard

 

If you're dimmers work, there's no need to replace them. If you are moving to DMX control you can use a Demux to convert the DMX control signal into the analogue control signal that your current dimmers will understand.

 

Learning about DMX isn't difficult, especially if you have the equipment in front of you. If you read the wiki pages I'm sure they'll answer most of your questions.

 

Good luck

Mark

[alistermorton]

When you say "program the show and have someone else operate" do you intend that someone only has to push "GO" at the requisite points in the show and the next cue will come up, or will they be expected to set the levels and cross fade. The 200+ series allows you to store scenes in submasters and move from one to the next, but I'd try to get a demo of the desk before you decide - it might not meet your exact requirements.

 

What sort of shows do you tend to put on, and how often? How many, and what sort of LED fixtures are you considering purchasing (and why what will they be used for)? These sort of things are worth considering before committing money

 

I don't (personally) think most people need to go on a course to learn DMX. It's just a way to get the signal from the lighting console to the dimmers and other appliances and yes, there are rules you need to know about cabling and termination, and "appliances" (splitters, for example) you probably want to at least be aware of , but it's the sort of thing that you'll probably be able to pick up from the web (or here).

 

I'm not trying to put you off, BTW :-)

 

EDIT : Oh, and second what Mark says - you can continue to use your dimmers if they're functional with a demux (I have a demux that drives some very old dimmers - works fine).

[Guest]

I think what I would do would be to continue using the Strand dimmers, but go down the route of using a demux unit (such as a Zero88 Demux 24).

Personally I would go down the route of getting a Zero88 Jester console. These are very nice consoles that are very easy to program and operate.

This console would be able to control your two dimmers, and depending what Jester you get, several LED fixtures as well.

Brand new a Jester is around £800, however there are usually some second hand ones going on ebay.

 

Hope this helps,

Edward

[paulears]

The trouble is that the old idea that generic kit was simple and movers more complicated doesn't make much sense now. Most LED kit now needs multiple channels. A local venue bought a few LED units, and wanted to use them on a simple control - and discovered that each one took up 7 channels, and they only had 24 faders. They'd bought 10 of the lights, so in the end had to settle for two groups of lights, one on one DMX channel, and the others on another, which took away many benefits of having them. Patching your LEDs to that control desk will soon eat up it's control capabilities. I suspect that you might want to look at something more modern and not hardware based. It's a learning curve to move from one to the other, but your operator won't care - a go button is a go button.

 

The other thing is that a computer based control (hardware or software) can respond much more simply to your needs. A button that says Backlight Blue, is far easier to use than to have to remember that backlights are subs 5-10, in various colours - and then having to combine the result into a cue, which is a different mode. You can set up a submaster for your common needs, but it's a bit of a fudge. A computer based system can have all sorts of things in palletes - all blue, odd numbered blue, up stage, down stage, left, right, centre, sic etc etc So what you want can just be a series of button presses and then exactly the right thing will happen. It means you do more programming of the ingredients and then spend less time on recipes. Keeping track of old fashioned submitters being used to do these things just makes it more confusing. The 200 is a fine desk, and the fixture library quite extensive - the only real issue is building new ones, which is a bit clunky if you've not done them before.

[Wingwalker]

Hi Richard,

 

I also echo the previous comments, personally I struggled with understanding DMX addressing at first because I'm an old fashioned fogey and then one day it just clicked into place. Now I wonder why I ever had an issue - it really is easy. However, if you still wish to do some studying in the form of a course then Stage Electrics will come to you rather than you go to them but it would be more beneficial if there are at least four or more of you who are willing to learn in order to justify the cost you would have to pay for this.

 

If your dimmers are fine and have never failed then carry on as you are and look into getting a Demux. However, there is also the addage that the older something gets then at some point things will fail. Experience usually tells me that once something starts to go wrong due to age then other things will follow and at this point it becomes costly. It's purely a matter of balancing things right.

 

With reference to LED kit - avoid the cheap knock offs wherever possible. Yes you will save a few quid when buying new gear but you will most certainly end up paying for it further down the line as the kit falls over. Which will almost certainly be sooner rather than later.

 

Hope that helps.

[ianknight]

Shop around and talk to dealers rather than just eMail them. You'll get a feel then for how helpful a dealer is going to be in assisting you to make the correct choice and supporting you through your learning process.

 

My choice of the word 'dealer' is deliberate as well - lots of people sell lighting & sound kit but not all of them deal directly with a manufacturer - not so important when you buy but 18 months later when you have problems, having someone by your side who can talk directly to the manufacturer is worth a lot.

 

If you were seeking my advice, there is a question to be asked first... Is this the only money you will see to upgrade your lighting or will there be dribs and drabs later?

 

If it's the only money then I would recommend replacing the dimmers and desk with something that's going to last you almost as long as the Mini 2's and LX - this will be a large chunk of your budget and you should be looking to pension off the Mini 2's. If there's likely to be more money later, then buy some LED units now and a cheap lighting desk - there are some fab COB units about that work nicely on a small stage and don't consume a lot of DMX channel space - once folk see them perform, they may decide to swap over wholly so removing the need for dimmers.

 

Don't get hung up on the need to have a DMX training course - the nitty gritty of the protocol you don't need to know - just the basics about configuring and using it. I've done basic sessions like this for lots of customers during hand overs and they've always grasped the essentials - any decent dealer should be able to do the same.

[paulears]

I'm not even sure how you know what a "knockoff" even is now - as there are so many brands that are OEM, so if it worries you, buy from one of the UK suppliers of chinese kit, or Thomann in Germany who happily give every cheap and cheerful chinese product a 3 year guarantee! The sheer number of nice LED fixtures around now is amazing. 3 years ago, I hated the stuff, now I'm the opposite I've not been disappointed with anything yet.

[richa]

Thanks everyone for your replies. I'll attempt to answer the questions.

 

I had thought about demux, but I think the Mini2+ dimmers are reaching end of life, so I would rather replace them now.

 

We use a community hall, but the dramatic group are the main user of the stage and the lighting kit is ours. We put on two to three shows a year (normally one or two plays and a panto), but there are other 'one off' uses occasionally that we allow use of our equipment for. Regarding how many LED fixtures, it will depend on funds, but I would like four or six initially to provide colour in place of using multiple conventional fixtures.

 

I don't know how much money there will be available later. My plan was dimmers and desk now, at least that will get over the current aging dimmers and will give extra flexibility with scenes and chases and an operator hitting the GO button. If and when funds are available I can then start buying fixtures.

[pmiller056]

Rather than finding a dedicated DMX training course, if there's another local theatre that you know and can ask nicely the house technical staff, I'm sure that they will be more than happy to show you what you need to know about DMX to get you started and for day-to-day use. Their toys will always be nicer and better than your own toys, which will give you something to aspire to.

[paulears]

I'm really confused about what I would put in a DMX course? There really is so little involved. It's what you can do with DMX that is important DMX on it's own is a ten minute session, or a read of the wiki article.

 

Is there some aspect of it that is intriguing you, or confusing you? We can probably sort that out quickly.

 

In fact, loads of people use DMX without even knowing what it is, or does - they just know you have to set a number on the light, and do something on the control end to make it work. I have far more grief making my Macbook talk to my windows network! In fact, almost every moving light manual tells you all you need to know from the light end. It's also not new, so the wow factor of being able to squeeze so many channels down a single cable isn't that wow any longer.

[jonhole]

Is it a good idea to get myself on lighting course to learn about DMX ... I will be interested in anyone knows of other companies that offer training for individuals.

 

Hi Richard,

 

We cover this in our free training courses, if those on the course ask us to. It might be worth joining us on a course (even if it's not the console you actually end up buying) so you gain some first hand experience of using LEDs, setting up a DMX system, DMX patching etc. Dates are here: zero88.com/training

 

I'd also be happy to go over the DMX side of things over the phone - just call us on 01633 838088 and ask to speak to me. It should only take us 10 minutes or so.

 

Cheers

 

Jon

[AndyJones]

If you're in Winchester, then I would have a look at The Chesil theatre near you. Peter Vincent (a member on here under the name of Vinntec) runs the lighting side of it. He may be able to help. If not we're in Basingstoke, and I'm happy to come and offer advice.