60mm or 100mm

[Mystic]

Well if the question is : "Do you want a cheap and easy to maintain console or something where you have to wait for month for expensive replacement parts ?" I suspect everyone will move to 100mm faders in a short timeframe ;)

[boac]

Well if the question is : "Do you want a cheap and easy to maintain console or something where you have to wait for month for expensive replacement parts ?" I suspect everyone will move to 100mm faders in a short timeframe ;)

 

But that wasn't the question, was it?

[Madmac]

Thank you for your replies.

 

Time will tell what gets fitted.

 

As another question, which again seems to split between theatre and other users, is if a console should be fanless like the MQ60.

Again what are thoughts on that?

 

George McDuff

ChamSys

[Geetrt]

Fanless is nice,but outside in summer, or in some clubs temperatures can get high. Why not make it a setup option, like some laptops already have?

 

As technology develops, soon you don't need fans anymore.

 

 

 

 

 

[smalljoshua]

If you can get away with fanless in ambient temps of 20deg or less then I think that's all we could ask for.

 

I assume you're still able to run on much less power hungry processors than some others? If so, shouldn't be that hard? If not, a nice large slow fan would be next favourite.

 

 

Josh

[djlorenz]

looking my mq60... I don't like the slow screen refresh... so if a fan can help in performance put that on without problems...

I work in concerts and clubs... so noise is really not a problem...

[boac]

@Madmac, could you give us a pros/cons of having a fan as you see it?

 

I'd never really thought about the fan but I am far more likely to be working in a hot noisy environment than a temperature controlled theatre, so I guess I would vote in favour of fans.

[Bobbsy]

Can a noise boy (well, noisy old git) ask a question?

 

Are the faders on a lighting desk logarithmic or linear? If linear, that's another difference. For sound, I much prefer 100mm faders and also setting my gain structure so most of my "little moves" are up around the zero point so my level changes can be very subtle and precise. With lights, I could see linear working much better .

[DrV]

Linear

 

Although the curve that comes out is usually modified in some way by the desk or the dimmers

 

Dave

[Madmac]

Are the faders on a lighting desk logarithmic or linear? If linear, that's another difference. For sound, I much prefer 100mm faders and also setting my gain structure so most of my "little moves" are up around the zero point so my level changes can be very subtle and precise. With lights, I could see linear working much better .

 

In the analogue days some motorised faders had log tracks for the audio and linear track for the servo. As the design of VCA's became easier and cheaper the log versions pretty much disappeared. Today you do get some motorised faders with two linear tracks one for control output and a second for the servo. The thinking behind these is that on a normal fader track there is a small region at each end where the resistance does not change to allow for termination and mechanical tolerance. Using this as the servo control means that the motor will not move the full mechanical travel.....with the result that the operator can still move the fader further down or up. Having a longer servo track allowed the mechanical movement to be the full length. Most systems today do this with a little bit more software in the motion control algorithm.

 

 

could you give us a pros/cons of having a fan as you see it?

 

One good market for the MQ60 has been in small theatre's / theatre companies where their venues do not have a tech booth and having a fanless console keeps the background noise down. In most systems fans tend to be fitted and suffer from the issue that users tend not to make sure that they are maintained. At some point they clog and then the unit falls over as either the processor or its support chips overheat and halt the system as thermal protection is tripped..

Eliminating the fan requires a bit more design to transfer the heat to a part of the product where it can dissipate with natural convection.

 

George McDuff

ChamSys

[ceecrb1]

Hi george! Great to see you here!

 

Personally I really like the faders on my MQ60.. but not because they are 60 or 100 mm

It's more for me that they are placed closer together, so with one hand I can stretch and hold the S or multiple Go's from 1 -10.

With the pcwing/mq100 I cant do that with one hand.

This really applies to nights busking etc

 

for other style shows: I have used my MQ60 on a show broadcast live over Europe (I sent photos to james a while back in case you want to look but they are not for web).

Even with the 60mm travel I was having no problems keeping the LD happy with his light meter and making minor adjustments etc while live.

 

Yes obviously a 100mm travel would've given me even more control etc, but I didnt feel like I was "over adjusting" with small faders.

Colin

[Madmac]

It's more for me that they are placed closer together, so with one hand I can stretch and hold the S or multiple Go's from 1 -10.

 

Hi Colin

 

The reduced fader spacing is a frequent complementary comment, along with silent operation and the built in UPS. As you say the wide spacing makes busking more difficult.

 

The MQ100 is a 12 year old design and back in 'them old days' the LCD with most cost v size was the 12.1 inch TN LCD with 800x600 pixel resolution.

To enable the faders to be labelled on screen with enough pixels to write something meaningful meant spacing them as widely as possible.

The PC wing was done with the same spacing so that it looked correct sitting near a console. The playback wing had a slightly reduced spacing to match up with the

standard text LCD's used for labelling.

 

Now a days high resolution screens are the norm and anything less than the default size of 1920x1080 which most portables and monitors have is looked down on.

 

The MQ60 still uses that very dated resolution of 800x600 on a 8 inch TN panel

I did a prototype for an updated MQ60 18 months ago using a 9.5 inch IPS LCD panel similar to that used in the latest iPad with a resolution of 2048x1536 pixels

as well as a quad core 1.5GHz processor compared to the original single core 1.2GHz).

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/v049vrj6jtdpx9y/MQ60_V2_1.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5v3t3p2fykvrq75/MQ60_V2_2.jpg?dl=0

 

As you can see from the photo's the current screen resolution looks tiny.

That is slightly more than 6.5 time the number of pixels on the original MQ60 screen ( as well as being slightly larger... matches up with the faders better).

The IPS screen also has the advantage of great viewing angle compared with the very poor angles on a TN LCD panel. One of the downsides to the design

of the original MQ60 and single PCB construction in general ( although very cost effective for manufacture and ideal for products at the lower end of the market).

 

As this thread was about motorised faders I should point out that the reduced spacing can be met using motorised faders, and in any future design I would use the

reduced spacing. On the MQ1000 I reduced the spacing slightly over the old MQ100 but with an encoder above each master it needs to be wide enough to adjust these

without clipping the masters either side.

 

George McDuff

ChamSys

[DonkiDonki]

Hi George, the physical difference between the 60mm and 100mm is not a big deal for me. If one was significantly cheaper I regards to repair then that would be the deciding factor for me.

 

Are you able to share what these will be for, are you still finalising the MQ1000 hardware?

 

I noticed the Maxi Wing is not currently listed on the Chamsys website; any chance your working on a replacement?

 

If so (fingers crossed) then I hope it would have more of the stadium features and layout. I have been tempted to upgrade to a maxi from my PCwing but can't justify the extra cost against what is a minor improvement in convenience.

Something that supports stadium features would be far easier to justify and I for one would seriously consider the investment. (I would take that over an MQ60 any day)

[ceecrb1]

If there is ever an update option to send back my mq60 for a higher resolution screen! Count me in!!!

 

Even if just updated to 1024x768..

For just one reason....... More palettes on screen...

Yes they will be smaller, but my fingers arnt *that* fat :D

 

 

 

It's more for me that they are placed closer together, so with one hand I can stretch and hold the S or multiple Go's from 1 -10.

 

Hi Colin

 

The reduced fader spacing is a frequent complementary comment, along with silent operation and the built in UPS. As you say the wide spacing makes busking more difficult.

 

The MQ100 is a 12 year old design and back in 'them old days' the LCD with most cost v size was the 12.1 inch TN LCD with 800x600 pixel resolution.

To enable the faders to be labelled on screen with enough pixels to write something meaningful meant spacing them as widely as possible.

The PC wing was done with the same spacing so that it looked correct sitting near a console. The playback wing had a slightly reduced spacing to match up with the

standard text LCD's used for labelling.

 

Now a days high resolution screens are the norm and anything less than the default size of 1920x1080 which most portables and monitors have is looked down on.

 

The MQ60 still uses that very dated resolution of 800x600 on a 8 inch TN panel

I did a prototype for an updated MQ60 18 months ago using a 9.5 inch IPS LCD panel similar to that used in the latest iPad with a resolution of 2048x1536 pixels

as well as a quad core 1.5GHz processor compared to the original single core 1.2GHz).

 

https://www.dropbox....0_V2_1.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox....0_V2_2.jpg?dl=0

 

As you can see from the photo's the current screen resolution looks tiny.

That is slightly more than 6.5 time the number of pixels on the original MQ60 screen ( as well as being slightly larger... matches up with the faders better).

The IPS screen also has the advantage of great viewing angle compared with the very poor angles on a TN LCD panel. One of the downsides to the design

of the original MQ60 and single PCB construction in general ( although very cost effective for manufacture and ideal for products at the lower end of the market).

 

As this thread was about motorised faders I should point out that the reduced spacing can be met using motorised faders, and in any future design I would use the

reduced spacing. On the MQ1000 I reduced the spacing slightly over the old MQ100 but with an encoder above each master it needs to be wide enough to adjust these

without clipping the masters either side.

 

George McDuff

ChamSys

[Madmac]

Are you able to share what these will be for, are you still finalising the MQ1000 hardware?

 

The motorised faders relate to another personal project. When the X32 came out it raised the question could a fully featured lighting desk be manufactured at the same price point.....a LX32 if you like.

This is very much how the MQ60 started as a target to design to.

It would have to be a product manufactured in China and using Chinese sourced parts......as the X32 does.

The specification I set was:

 

13.3 IPS 1920x1080 LCD ( a sweet price/performance point for the last couple of years as it is a very popular portable PC size)

Raised display to give optimum viewing angle

Two point touch (again fitted to a large number of portables)

Single external monitor again 1920x1080, HDMI interface

6 individually isolated DMX outputs ( 2 more than the usual 4, adds about £30 to list price compared to £150 or so for an Ethernet expansion box)

Quad core ARM processor supporting at least 32 universes

Fanless operation

UPS internal with target time of 20 mins operation (same as MQ60)

1 G Ethernet switch 4 ports

Usual ArtNet sACN etc support

PoE on two ports (backed up by UPS)

MIDI in / out with MTC receive and generate

LTC (SMPTE) in and generate

12 channel analogue inputs

RS232 Interface

USB x 2

Audio with stereo 7 band filters

10 playbacks with motorised 100mm faders with pull back switch for preview (external Viz) + usual buttons

Rotary encoder on each playback

2 x cross fader (100mm) and a grand master (60mm)

10 execute buttons

Back illuminated legends on all buttons with adjustable brightness

built in sliding tray for keyboard

Single dual colour working light with adjustable brightness

4 main encoders

 

At the current time the list price would end up higher than the X32, probably around that of the M32 (and end up looking a bit like it too, in cross section).

The MQ60 PCB fully loaded (the MQ70 build) there are around 1200 components on the PCB. The LX32 with more functionality is currently just under

900 components. The MQ60 hardware was designed in 2009 so in five years increasing integration has reduced the BOM by around a quarter.

 

 

With regard to the MQ1000....still a lot to do and a lot of testing will be needed to get a reliable product. Would be surprised if it ships this year.

 

 

George McDuff

ChamSys