Putting omni radio mic's through monitors.

[Original Beef]

I just wanted to gauge some opinions on here about putting headworn Omni radio mic's through monitors. For a number of years I've worked with a youth theatre group in Wales who mainly do musicals in Welsh. The standard is very high and until Saturday I had never been asked to put any microphones through the monitors, only piano. Saturday's gig was being filmed by S4C and one of the producers reckoned that a couple of singers were singing flat during rehearsal and could I put their microphones through the monitors. I have tried this before with another theatre group with little success but went ahead anyway with the help of the in house technician. Similar problems ensued despite our best efforts at ringing the monitors out etc. I just couldn't get any discernible level. For your information the in house system is all Shermann Audio as is my own rig when I use it and the headsets where DAP (can't remember the exact model) so it's not that the equipment isn't up to scratch.

 

Does anyone on here have experience of this issue? Is it not the done thing, or maybe the monitors should be in a different location as I usually just put them front of stage as you would for a band?

 

 

Any views gratefully received.

[Bobbsy]

It's not the done thing. Usually monitors (if use at all) just carry the band mix (or even just a portion of the band carrying the vocal line). If it's absolutely necessary to put vocals into the monitors then it's pretty well essential to move to cardioid headsets or use monitor levels so low they're barely worthwhile.

[cedd]

As Bobbsy said, it's just not done. My monitor mix sometimes isn't even the whole band. I'll talk to the MD and have a look at the score, then we'll decide the key instruments to push through the foldback. Sometimes it's just the keys. My usual approach to foldback is to keep it as simple as possible. Sound effects and band.

 

I'll occasionally stick the vocals through for a specific number, but often this will be very much with me riding the send, and with a specifically placed monitor speaker. It's not the norm though.

 

 

 

[paulears]

Many designers do put something into the monitors, but the safe level is very, very low and even then it causes grief. Like the others above, I don't do it. Musical theatre isn't a pop gig and people have to learn to pitch. They will say it's impossible and the music is too loud. Point them towards an opera singer with huge orchestra just a few feet away and see how it's possible without any mics at all. The people that claim they can't hear to pitch just haven't practiced enough, or are crap singers.

 

I have learned the hard way in the past couple of years that you have to work hard at pitching when you can't hear yourself, and once you learn to trust what you hear through bone, you can do it, and you can get better.

[dbuckley]

What the OP has discovered sis why many televised shows are mimed...

[smalljoshua]

I have learned the hard way in the past couple of years that you have to work hard at pitching when you can't hear yourself, and once you learn to trust what you hear through bone, you can do it, and you can get better.

 

I oft find myself wearing one earplug on stage, it allows me to pitch to myself much easier than without. I've never had to ask for any of myself on stage though. Even with a loud pit band. I agree with the sentiment that you just need to learn to pitch without reliance on foldback, it's just another skill of singing.

 

Josh

[paulears]

I've actually noted with newer performers that their requests for monitors often depend on where they were trained. The ones who moan and groan "I can't hear myself" went to a different place.

 

I cringe when I hear the Director telling them he'll sort it with the sound op, and have been known to warn them in advance the request is coming. By this time a very good, solid and robust defence has often been developed. Less er, show wise sound ops actually attempt to give them what they want and then spend show after show fighting feedback - and living on the edge is not fun.

 

There's another complication too, where the people on stage want rock and roll levels, that increase spill and make it worse. My favourite sound ops for musicals keep the on stage sound as low as they can, while I work with one who constantly asks the people on stage if they want more monitors - my strong suggestion that this is stupid is met with confusion? Ten minutes later he moans about spill into the mics, and the constant threat of feedback.

[Original Beef]

Thanks for the input guys. I was hoping Paulears would get on board with this one with his vast theatrical experience. To be fair, the young singers I work with are very good and have never personally asked me for anything in the foldback, it was just this one producer. One thing I have noticed with this group over the years is that they always put in an extra 30% when they do the performance in the evening as opposed to rehearsal, and they certainly didn't sing flat that night. Well that's settled it for me, I was doing it right all along and if it comes up in the future I can tell them with some authority that the guys from Blue room don't recommend it ;-)

[paulears]

Nice comments, but please remember that despite a long time at it (like many others), I'm also responsible for quite a few projects that really should have been stamped "Could have done better!". I suspect that many of my jobs are because I'm OK at many things, but excellent at none! I think my own advice not to do it is not because of any real technical basis, but simply because when you do try it, you wish you hand't, and the flack you get sticks in the mind. The technical issues, when looked at dry - look to the newcomer to be solvable by speaker placement, eq, sharp filtering and time delay. In themselves, all techniques that work for many things. Fighting potential feedback that conspires to trip you up means the chances of messing up are greater. I think my attitude is that when you mix, you want the best sound for the audience, not you want maximum level and no feedback because that is good?

[sam.spoons]

If singers on a musical need their vocals in the monitors the stage sound is too loud. They aren't trying to hear themselves with a rock drummer three feet behind them and a guitarist with a marshall stack either side. I know an orchestra is a loud thing but so is a good (i.e. operatic trained) human voice, With the huge dynamic range of a modern musical I've come to accept the need for mics on the singers (the principles at least, though my dad will be revolving in his urn) but this is for the audience's benefit and vocals in the monitors should be completely unnecessary.

[Bobbsy]

Actually, that's a good point, Sam (or at least half a good point).

 

We've all been assuming that the flat singing is because the singers can't hear themselves. However, this being a school show (even a good one) maybe a few just sing flat and need some words or help from the MD.

 

I know that all the monitors in the world would make me sing on key--my singing can kill at 40 paces.

[TimmyP1955]

Putting them in the monitors will do several things.

 

Reduce gain before feedback.

 

Make everything sound 'loose' or 'hollow'.

 

Make them sing quieter, exacerbating the above problems.

 

 

An exception might be to put duos who are far apart in the monitor that's across the stage.

[Stocky]

+1 on the pitch training argument. They are the singer, their instrument is their voice, a professional should never need foldback to find their pitch.

 

if it does come sending vocals back to them and fighting feedback I do the same thing each time. Pre-fader, try and give them the level they want, inevitably it will feed back before they get the volume they want, I take it back behind the feedback threshold and explain to them that is simply the maximum they can have, no questions asked. if they ask for more I just send them feedback until they understand I wasn't lying.

 

With certain microphones though, you will never win. If the directors decide on a microphone that looks discreet/invisible then sometimes they are straight away taking away any chance of vocal monitoring for the singers.

[sam.spoons]

With my singer/guitarist (loud electric band) hat on I disagree that pro's should never need foldback, in a loud electric band context it can be extremely difficult (or even impossible) to pitch accurately, especially harmony vocals (though I won't argue that the best singers can sometimes manage it if stage volumes aren't too silly). Theatre sound is another KOF and, as I said, stage levels are too loud if the singers need vocals in the foldback.

[paulears]

The thing I notice is that pitching is more difficult if the noise making sources on stage are all close together. My band revolves around 4 part harmony in every song - we all have different parts to sing - and if it's a small stage, then I have to use IEMs or I can't pitch. On a bigger, festival size stage, I often don't bother because with all the monitors being spaced apart, somehow, and I really don't know why, I can pitch fine even when it's loud. In musical theatre, the solos or duets often get away with no or low monitors - perhaps for the same reason, but the chorus numbers are where it goes wrong because they sing so loud, the total volume swamps the band or tracks. This causes lots of problems. Musical theatre foldback is a totally different problem to any other performance genre.