Use of Disney songs in panto

[mattcoomber1]

Hi,

 

I was wondering what the ruling is on using Disney songs in panto. I have heard people say you can use them but only excerpts and some who say you cant. Does anyone know what you can and can't do? For example can you have 10 seconds of Hi-Ho or are you not allowed to use it at all?

 

Many thanks

 

Matt

[WiLL]

Hi,

 

I was wondering what the ruling is on using Disney songs in panto. I have heard people say you can use them but only excerpts and some who say you cant. Does anyone know what you can and can't do? For example can you have 10 seconds of Hi-Ho or are you not allowed to use it at all?

 

Many thanks

 

Matt

I know it's another forum but have a look here: am dram forum

it answers a few questions, and asks a few more no doubt.

[paulears]

The use of Disney material of any kind can be very expensive. QDOS, for example commissioned their own versions of the Snow White Dwarf song because as rights payments are based on box office percentages, it can be very expensive to get it wrong. I've also been involved with productions where a Disney song was incorporated in the rehearsals, and then hastily removed when the implication was realised. Disney don't help when they sell sheet music, and then add a no-performance clause.

 

You cannot use 10 seconds of Heigh-ho. 10 seconds of music in a panto is a play-on, or a play-off, and as short segments are commonplace, you can't really argue it's incidental or any kind of fair use.

[dbuckley]

I've just looked at the on-line lookup for these sorts of things in New Zealand and Australia; title: HEIGH HO (FR: SNOW WHITE & THE SEVEN DWARFS), composer: CHURCHILL F/MOREY L is not marked as "can be licenced", so it looks hard.

 

That said, it has been licenced by an enormous list of performers, so the rights are definitely available, though whether one could get them for a particular show (or indeed, afford to get them for a particular show) looks like a long and winding road.

[paulears]

Disney are so big that communication is so difficult. Here in the UK, quite a lot of Disney material is out of PRS control - 7(f)'d being the term used. So PRS cannot license it on their behalf, so you talk to Disney, and that takes time. On a bit of a whim a few years back I looked for rights clearance to use some of their songs, and eventually was told I could use the ones I wanted but only in a concert production, no costumes or makeup allowed. As the songs absolutely demanded costumes and makeup, we went no further - but it's always worth asking.

[ImagineerTom]

10 or so years ago one of the big panto producers did manage to negotiate the rights to a couple of Disney tracks for panto but it only lasted a year or two and the fact they didn't renew (or be copied by any of the other companies) tells you that the cost/hassle/restrictions clearly far outweighed the benefits.

 

They will also no doubt veto anything related to shows they already produce live action versions of through any of their subsidiaries so you're really only going to be even considered for the old pre 1980's stuff.

 

Everything can be licensed for a price, but sometimes that price has a lot more zeros on it than you'd want.

[mattcoomber1]

Thanks for the information everyone. Thats a great help.

 

Regards

 

Matt

[GridGirl]

Clearly you want to go about this the right way, but a word of caution for anyone else thinking they could try and get away with it; I heard a story of a young girl who tragically died at a very early age, and as Winnie the Pooh was her favourite character, her parents put him on her headstone. The rights to Winnie the Pooh and other AA Milne characters of course are owned by Disney; they found out that the character had been used without permission and sued the parents...I don't ever advocate using material without permission, but Disney would be one to steer very clear of or they'll hit you like a ton of bricks.

[kitlane]

Clearly you want to go about this the right way, but a word of caution for anyone else thinking they could try and get away with it; I heard a story of a young girl who tragically died at a very early age, and as Winnie the Pooh was her favourite character, her parents put him on her headstone. The rights to Winnie the Pooh and other AA Milne characters of course are owned by Disney; they found out that the character had been used without permission and sued the parents...I don't ever advocate using material without permission, but Disney would be one to steer very clear of or they'll hit you like a ton of bricks.

 

Is that the same instance as this one?

[GridGirl]

Yes, I think that's the same one - I had some facts wrong but I'm pretty sure it's the same.

[Junior8]

I don't ever advocate using material without permission, but Disney would be one to steer very clear of or they'll hit you like a ton of bricks.

 

And not only Disney. You'd be amazed at the intelligence networks that some image rights holders have and how zealous they are at enforcement - it that includes some names you wouldn't expect.

[WiLL]

I just heard that at the Duchess of Cornwells brothers funeral they played Colonel Haiti's March (The elephant song, I think he was a fundraiser for elephant charities). Do we think Disney will be chasing Camilla for royalties?

[ImagineerTom]

Well unless they presented a staged performance it would fall under the PRS type standard music licenses and depending on if the funeral was a proper religious service in a proper religion premises then would fall under the exceptions and special licenses/wavers they have?

 

Did father-in-law turn up with a blunderbuss by any chance?

[the kid]

A random fact I discovered the other day the music for "you wouldn't steal a car" - the FACT anti piracy bits on dvd's was stolen http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2013/01/29/3678851.htm

 

But on topic, if x company use music that is old who owns it? Tetris is a Russian folk song IIR, but other old pieces like Beethoven etc who owns them to be used in film / tv, or is the owner the people who play it for that version?

[ImagineerTom]

There's more than one "owner" of a piece of music.

 

the original composer (and possibly orchestrator) who generally license through a music publishing company

The arranger of this particular performance/version

The musicians actually playing this particular performance

The record company/distributor who created this physical recording you're now using.

 

So if you're using a commercially available CD of a piece of music there's at least 4 people in the chain getting royalties / giving permission. If you just use the sheet music then you only need permission from the first 2 people on that list, plus the "permission" of the musicians you're paying to play it for you (but since you've hired them, permission is a technicality), If a tune is based on something that's out of copyright or based on a traditional tune then that core tune doesn't need licensing but the arrangement of it will, as will the musicians playing it and the record company who put the album out.

 

 

It all gets very complicated and there is a reason why TV companies employ whole floors full of people doing nothing but trying to pick-apart who all the rights-holders are for any particular piece of music, whether there's existing blanket agreements in place or if separate licenses are needed. That's why you tend to hear more and more library music (and often the same tracks used over and over on different shows) because 99% of the licensing paperwork is already done.