Advice to rejuvenate a community theatre

[pstoneman]

Hi folks... We have a ~300 person school/community theatre largely full of old 1970's generics of various sizes. The generics do fine for what they are, although we're sometimes limited on our versatility and the effects we can use. We do a mix of theatre, comedy, live music and dance - possibly a bit more theatre than the others.

 

We're being given a grant of ~£25k to buy some new lighting stuff. We've very inclined to go for about 10-12 moving head LED washlights (ideally with zoom too), and a desk to match. Can anyone recommend any particular bits of hardware we should look out for?

 

We hired some MAC Auras recently, and while the 'Aura' effect is clearly just a gimmick, the regular beam's colour mixing, power and zoom range of them was pretty impressive, and the sort of thing we could get good use out of. I know some folks say 'buy loads of new generics', but we have more-or-less enough static fixtures, and movers would benefit us from a 'training the schoolkids' point of view, as well as from a health and safety and speed aspect (no need to jump around on the tallescope to rig a wash)

 

What's the realistic lifespan of modern LED washlights these days? Do they still fade towards the end of their life?

 

Finally, the desk. I like MagicQ; I use the PC version a lot and I'm quite comfortable with it - but we have a bunch of schoolkids who need to learn the ropes quickly and easily too. Do you guys think that MQ's 'Simple' interface on an MQ60 would work for this use? Or should we look at getting something more 'traditional' and mainstream like a Zero88 or something? Or even an Avo / Martin / something else?

 

Thanks! Happy to provide more details if that's useful to anyone :-)

[paulears]

An MQ60 has the useful interfaces the MQ40 doesn't - I'd expect it to be quite handy in the hands of newcomers to lighting - certainly I'm one of the happy MQ users.

 

I'm very pro the LED washes - I've got a pile of them now and more on order. However - they do have one drawback when used for straight theatre - they're quite noisy, and on the ones I have, the good bit is that if they are off, the fans cut out totally, quite quickly, but as soon as they light up, the fans come on suddenly. Having ten suddenly burst into life does raise the noise floor quite significantly. fine for music, not so hot for plays or other quieter stuff.

 

I've got four on the advance truss, and frankly I think that I can live with two for something like a comedian, but four I can hear from the LX box right at the back - and on stage, with our trim height quite low at 4.5M, the turns can hear them quite plainly. It's the start and stop that does it. I'm using 36 X 10W RGBW ones, imported from china, and they're very bright, and have a zoom that works very well.

[top-cat]

We're being given a grant of ~£25k to buy some new lighting stuff. We've very inclined to go for about 10-12 moving head LED washlights (ideally with zoom too), and a desk to match. Can anyone recommend any particular bits of hardware we should look out for?

 

In terms of hardware, just remember that your infrastructure needs to keep up with the lights your putting into it. If you're going for lots of movers, that means you will want to consider:

 

- Is your existing rigging suitable for hanging moving lights on (both due to the increased weight, and the fact that they move) ? Or does it need beefing up

 

- Do you have power distro to send out numerous ways of hot power to different locations around the theatre

 

- Do you have data distribution (IE DMX Buffers) to send numerous ways of DMX to different locations around the theatre

 

- Do you have suitable access equipment for installing and removing heavy movers? IE rigging a source 4 from the top of a zarges is reasonably standard practice, but doing the same for a big mover gets a bit more tricky

 

- Do you have the facility to service faulty movers in house? Do you need to set aside money for servicing with a local firm? Do you need to look into manufacturers with good warranty programs on their kit?

 

Often these considerations are overlooked, and the kit you buy is only as good as the infrastructure you can slot it into. So you really need to work out how much it will cost to make the theatre 'ready' for the new purchases you are looking into, and deduct that money from your 25k, to give you the actual amount you can spend.

 

 

 

Also as an aside, for control, whilst the MQ60 is a good desk, I'm really sold on wings for installs right now. Wings can give you the same functionality for lower cost, they can also mean less hardware limitations - such as screen size and quantity, wireless networking, etc , since the limitations are based on the computer, not the desk; and also reflect better the fact that in modern technology, computers are the first-surpassed equipment in the chain. In several years you'll be able to buy a new computer but keep the control surface, when the latest version of the software requires a higher spec computer than the old computer can deliver. With a built-in computer, this is simply not an option. For touring, the benefit of the whole package being in one metal box is obvious. For a permanent install, though, the boundary is less clear and my opinion is that many industries have already taken solely to computer-based systems and providing control only, there is no reason why the lighting industry cannot do the same.

 

Don't limit yourself to Chamsys either, they're good but not the be all and end all that many people pertain them to be. Ring around the manufacturers and get yourself on the training - if you tell them you are actively looking to make a purchase in the near future (and not just a freelancer expanding their knowledge) in they will make sure to slot you in, there is no better marketing pitch than 6 hours of training. There are good offerings from all the lighting desk manufacturers right now.

[ianknight]

Personally (and coming from a little theatre background too) I wouldn't entertain the idea of moving LED's for a small venue for day to day stuff - from the ones I've seen here at work, they would make things harder for you, mostly because of the darned noise and also that they would spend most of the evening turning around and swivelling.

 

My advice would be to talk to a company that has decent experience of installing LED's in a theatre situation and that hasn't just seen them at PLASA/ABTT. Insist on onsite demo's of both the LED's and desks, don't bother with companies that won't do that.

 

There are some good offerings of LED Wash fixtures now that have appeared over the last year that do both White/Warm White or colour and you don't have to pay a lot for them. Work on the basis that you're about to do straight swaps between tungsten and LED e.g. where you have fresnels and floods use LED wash, service & retain your profiles or replace with something modern, cyc lighting battens use LED Battens. By and large, some of the LED units will be lighter so you won't need to upgrade rigging only service it, the LED's only need 'hard' power not dimming which can be run down existing patching (assuming it's in reasonable condition) and consolidate your dimming to operate the few tungsten units you will have remaining.

 

For control, I'm a firm believer in a lighting desk being a lighting desk - whilst I can see the benefits and advantages of PC's and wings I don't believe in a community environment that the lighting desk PC wouldn't soon be filled with crap or the latest 'must have' as well as the lighting software. As an ex IT technician as well, what are you going to do on the opening night when the hard disk crashes on the PC just as the houselights go out? Whilst dedicated controls do go wrong, they're designed with hardware that has more potential reliability than a PC.

 

Again, insist on demo's of controls from companies that install them regularly for theatre use and don't fall for the "Well - this is standard up and down the country" line. It's your theatre, you will be using the control and working alongside the people you know, you need to ask yourself what will work for you and them?

 

Don't be rushed in to spending the money, it will gather interest whilst you gather your thoughts and decide! :)

[timsabre]

For control, I'm a firm believer in a lighting desk being a lighting desk - whilst I can see the benefits and advantages of PC's and wings I don't believe in a community environment that the lighting desk PC wouldn't soon be filled with crap or the latest 'must have' as well as the lighting software. As an ex IT technician as well, what are you going to do on the opening night when the hard disk crashes on the PC just as the houselights go out? Whilst dedicated controls do go wrong, they're designed with hardware that has more potential reliability than a PC.

 

I agree with you about the potential problems of a wing+PC getting messed up by users, and that for this kind of environment a dedicated console is a much better idea.

However all the current "serious" lighting consoles run on standard PC hardware inside, so your last point is debatable - it's control over the software environment that makes them reliable.

 

Also, just out of interest, what low cost white LED wash fixtures are you referring to?

[mac500]

I can recommend looking at the robe robin range of moving lights. They have a really lovely colour range and excellent dimming plus they're really light weight.

[timsabre]

I can recommend looking at the robe robin range of moving lights. They have a really lovely colour range and excellent dimming plus they're really light weight.

 

They are lovely lights, but at about £1800 per unit for the Robin 100, and £3K for the Robin 300 they are somewhat out of the OP's price range.

[smalljoshua]

I'm going to echo what others have said here about getting in a reputable local firm to do you the quote for supplying the gear and installing the infrastructure for the building if required.

 

Where in the country are you? Someone local may be able to help.

 

Josh

[ianknight]

For control, I'm a firm believer in a lighting desk being a lighting desk - whilst I can see the benefits and advantages of PC's and wings I don't believe in a community environment that the lighting desk PC wouldn't soon be filled with crap or the latest 'must have' as well as the lighting software. As an ex IT technician as well, what are you going to do on the opening night when the hard disk crashes on the PC just as the houselights go out? Whilst dedicated controls do go wrong, they're designed with hardware that has more potential reliability than a PC.

 

I agree with you about the potential problems of a wing+PC getting messed up by users, and that for this kind of environment a dedicated console is a much better idea.

However all the current "serious" lighting consoles run on standard PC hardware inside, so your last point is debatable - it's control over the software environment that makes them reliable.

 

Also, just out of interest, what low cost white LED wash fixtures are you referring to?

 

Tim I've sent you a PM so I don't breach any advertising rules here. The rest of your post - I shall have to agree to disagree :P

[Brian]

Tim I've sent you a PM so I don't breach any advertising rules here.

 

Ian, the rules are that, if asked a direct question, there is no problem with replying even if you are a dealer for the kit you are mentioning.

[ianknight]

Tim I've sent you a PM so I don't breach any advertising rules here.

 

Ian, the rules are that, if asked a direct question, there is no problem with replying even if you are a dealer for the kit you are mentioning.

 

Thanks for clarifying that Brian - I always try to err on the side of caution. :D

[top-cat]

 

For control, I'm a firm believer in a lighting desk being a lighting desk - whilst I can see the benefits and advantages of PC's and wings I don't believe in a community environment that the lighting desk PC wouldn't soon be filled with crap or the latest 'must have' as well as the lighting software. As an ex IT technician as well, what are you going to do on the opening night when the hard disk crashes on the PC just as the houselights go out? Whilst dedicated controls do go wrong, they're designed with hardware that has more potential reliability than a PC.

 

I think your whole point is out of touch with modern lighting desks.

 

Most modern lighting desks are just PCs inside with control hardware attached up to it in a similar way to a PC Wing to. PC, just the cables are inside the box not outside it!

 

In terms of software on the show PC, you are an ex it tech? Did you never learn about setting user permissions? You can create an account which will let the user do everything they need to but not fill the machine with rubbish. That's very basic stuff. Even if the OS doesn't offer this function, there are plenty of affordable third party packages which offer it.

 

As for hard drive failure, if your HDD fails 2 minutes before curtains, you face the same problem as if your HDD in your lighting desk fails 2 minutes before doors. Actually, if you want to be pedantic, it's much easier to set up hard disk arrays for computers which switch to a redundant backup in instantly in the event of data loss and can be set to back of constantly. I don't know of any lighting desks which offer this internally. As for lighting desk hardware being more robust than a computer? You choose what hardware goes in your computer! If you fit your computer with a shock proof SSD the that will not be magically less robust than a standard HDD in a lighting desk. I can think of one major lighting desk manufacturer who's internal memory is a cheap USB stick superglued in place.

 

The computer in a computer + Wing set up can be whatever you want it to be. The same cannot be said for a lighting desk - the computer is the manufacturers choice. If you use unreliable parts, that's your choice. I wouldn't myself.

 

The argument that PC set ups are unreliable because of component failure put a lot of sound engineers off digital desks in the early days. Now they have realised that its not a common occurrence, you struggle to find a major tour using analogue.

[mjriley]

 

For control, I'm a firm believer in a lighting desk being a lighting desk - whilst I can see the benefits and advantages of PC's and wings I don't believe in a community environment that the lighting desk PC wouldn't soon be filled with crap or the latest 'must have' as well as the lighting software. As an ex IT technician as well, what are you going to do on the opening night when the hard disk crashes on the PC just as the houselights go out? Whilst dedicated controls do go wrong, they're designed with hardware that has more potential reliability than a PC.

 

I think your whole point is out of touch with modern lighting desks.

 

Most modern lighting desks are just PCs inside with control hardware attached up to it in a similar way to a PC Wing to. PC, just the cables are inside the box not outside it!

 

In terms of software on the show PC, you are an ex it tech? Did you never learn about setting user permissions? You can create an account which will let the user do everything they need to but not fill the machine with rubbish. That's very basic stuff. Even if the OS doesn't offer this function, there are plenty of affordable third party packages which offer it.

 

You could even use software like Deep Freeze which restores the PC to a known good state upon reboot, obviously this requires careful management of show file locations etc. but works amazingly and is often used in educational situations for exactly the same reasons.

http://www.faronics....ts/deep-freeze/

[paulears]

The benefit of computer operated is of course that you can have a working spare on site! So your dedicated PC fails - you pull out a laptop, or the office PC and in a few minutes you are running again. If a dedicated LX desk dies, the show is dead too!

 

I also was a bit surprised at the Robe suggestion - fair enough you could buy a few of the dimmer ones, but the reasons for going with Robe are probably just the availability of spares for longer than the cheaper brands - but with cheap ones in a low use environment, you can afford to have enough so that you can sacrifice one at some point to be a spares unit. If they get trashed, it's also easier to write off a £500 unit than a two grand one!

[Don Allen]

I would like to suggest getting RGBW or RGBA outdoor led PAR's as there is no fans, as a complement to your rig, not to replace the conventionals completely.

 

They will provide

Wide choice of colours.

Reduce power consumption as they will replace two or three conventionals washing the same area with different colours.

Reduce overcrowding in the rig.

Cheaper cost than LED movers.

 

I would also recommend getting a controller that shows output colour and provides a colour picker. A lot of desks and pc programs provide this now. (Do NOT get a Strand 200 plus)

 

I have RGBWA LED movers with zoom for the jazz shows I light. The fans only come on when you have light output, which is usually during a song. These are outdoor shows but the bands never complain of noise as they are playing so do not notice it. The main reason I upgraded to them was remote focus.