Night Club install questions

[CyrusZ]

Hello, I want to introduce my self first, I just joined up. I am in the states but this forum has had a bunch of great info for me and thought it would be the right place to post my question. I have been in live productions (sound and lights) for years, Professionally as a mobile DJ since 2000 and now run my small event rental/performance company where we rent out small to medium sound and light rigs as well as do DJ's for weddings, night clubs, and school dances. Over the years in the field and the requirement to be my own tech crew I have learned more than enough to get myself in trouble. I currently run QSC and EAW speakers with a handful of my own creation subs like a pair of Lab 12 horns.

 

There is a new night club opening and though their DJ they referred me to help with a sound system install. I told them I could sell them some of my extra gear, and get them some new parts where it counts and things I can not spare. I am writing up the proposal but wanted to run my thoughts past the forum to see if I have any pitfalls I have missed.

 

 

The room is not an easy one, it is a concrete basement, concrete walls, floors ceiling, 11' ceilings, we have framed out most of the space for bar, vip, entry, bathrooms and are left with approx 80x60 raw space, and in the middle we are going to focus on a 40x20 dance floor. There is a stage 20' by 15' at the end of the dance floor, the stage like most theaters is in the wall and the nose is flush with the wall.

 

the club is located in a College town so top 40, edm, and maybe some rock for karaoke night, being college town they want to also be able to have other events in there for football games, or maybe a piano player or something but primarily the dance club. The sound only needs to be about 10% better then the rest but I want to give them the best I can offer, the other dance place's in town have pair dbl 18's and a pair of double 15" mains, but the other places are in wood construction buildings.

 

 

 

I have 2 rigs currently both strictly FOH sound One is a powered qsc KW setup 4x kw 18" subs on the front of the stage 2 per side (10' apart) or lined up in the middle then to hang from the ceiling a pair of kw152's possibly at a 30deg angle on their sides to clearance. super simple setup, nice quality and we could add a few kw121's for monitors or fly a pair out in the back of the room facing back in to the dance floor to lower the foh sound level if it gets to loud up there.

 

rig idea # 2 my EV and EAW rig. A pair of eaw Mk5264's again on the ceiling on their sides pointed slightly down about 30deg, then 4 or 6x EV double 18 subs loaded with EVX drivers these are a very cool bandpass enclosure where the subs are mounted sideways magnets in the mouth firing out in to chambers. half of the cabs are clones and have reverse ports for port matching and would line up perfectly across the whole front of the stage for a wall of subs. While this may be able to max out the room's sound pressure levels it would be a more musical sound in my opinion, and I read on the forum if you way overkill the sound system in a club then 70% output feels almost to loud limiting a DJ wanting to turn up his mixer to the point of clipping.

 

I am working on an expensive bid with a set of 4 Funktion One 12" mains and the EV subs but at that point they are paying for the idea of a "wall of subs" and a flashy logo on some white speakers.

 

 

For my questions/concerns with my current plan is if I were to build a FOH sound system would I just create a massive power alley, and with all concrete I may get to a point with the sound having to many hot spots and bass reflections ringing that the room becomes uncomfterble. That leads to the second question, I see in most clubs they scatter speakers willy nilly around the place and don't care about time align and power alleys, I could do the same thing and the client would still love it. I know for my ability level, I can tune a front of house system better than a scattered system but if I need to change out the 15" mains with 4 or 6 12" monitors around the room because it will be the correct solution I will have to learn how to tune it. With the concrete and the bass, are we fighting an up hill battle trying to get great sound in the basement and should just get the simple qsc system in a fairly good system and not waste extra money on the high end gear?

I have one other question on my rack gear, I am going to run QSC amps (I love the sound and warranty probably the rmx series for cost) but I need some processing, for clubs I want to do a rack mount small mixer maybe 8 channel and next to no options on the face so they can not mess with it, I have this old EAW DX8 digital mixer and it would be ideal but I do not want to part with it, partly because I am having trouble finding other units on the market today with the same feature set, but when you plug in a laptop you can set it up just like a 8x10 mixer, with limiters, and outputs with all of the features a drive-rack has. Any suggestions on a 500$ or less current model rack mixer/dsp unit that can be the brain unit for the setup?

thanks for the time and expertise in advance.

[top-cat]

to be honest I think you will struggle to find people who want to do your job for you.

[paulears]

Is the plan to use your existing rig in any solution? You mention time alignment an 'power alleys', but to me, it sounds as if you're trying to use a sound system near the stage to cover the entire venue, when from my admittedly limited experience, nightclubs tend to have distributed systems in zones to cater for the different volume levels required. It's a big space, and the furthest areas are going to be very quite and the area near the speakers very loud. I don't see too many issues with your kit, but just implementation. Certain locations need very different sound. All the clubs I've been to (usually as an unwilling passenger) that have good quality sound seem to do it by trying to contain sound into the areas it's needed. For a band, with live mics, then speakers mustn't be directed to the stage, but for dancing, they seem to surround the dance area - very different techniques.

 

If all your planing is based around re-deploying your equipment then it's going to be a compromise, because you're trying to do too much, with too little equipment to do it properly.

 

Have you got a proper plan of the venue, so we can see the layout - it doesn't translate in words.

[kerry davies]

Getting a good live sound in that sort of space is your biggest difficulty and monitoring will be the real pig. I would start from live sound and add in for dance rather than the other way round. But that's just me.

 

I used to DJ in a compromise venue like that and one thing I did that helped was play mono rather than stereo. I could add or remove sources as required and the overall sound stayed the same.... just about! I would firstly get some noise in there and see how the room reacts. I might set up for live and then add side-fills, sub and top, for the dance-floor.

 

The layout will form your responses, as Paul says, and the furnishings will be just as influential. The ceiling height will set your parameters in a big way and to be honest, I doubt if anyone can help remotely like this.

 

Fire exits and escape routes will restrict choices, what various "zones" are used for will, the clientele and their behaviour will, just too many variables for specifics. Keep us informed.

[CyrusZ]

Thanks guys for the replies, I will work on doing a sketch. I agree the zone setup is the ideal club setup, however I was called because they wanted to buy some of my used gear to keep costs down and all of my stuff is set up for mobile use. I also told him I would do a temp setup for them to take a listen before they bought any of the gear so I do not want to buy a lot of new gear just to demo my used stuff.

 

 

 

My largest concern is with the concrete space, I have done tons of rigs on concrete floors and know how the speakers couple with the slab, but with this place being a concrete box I got worried that when the sound hits the ceiling and walls they will not absorb the bass and reflections in the room may become hard to tune correctly. So then I figured with my skill level to reduce the plans down to a FOH system so at least I have only one point source to deal with rather than multiple.

 

please excuse the poor drawing but this is the space as they have it built out, the black lines are all of the walls they framed in and the outside of the image is the concrete foundation.

 

 

.

[djmatthill]

Try and grab a 2nd hand BSS Soundweb , Standard DSP device here in the UK for Bar / Nightclub Installs.

 

8in x 8 out , Complete security as only control via laptop is possible.

 

Also I think splitting the room in to "ZONES" is the only way forward.

You need a Large 2 Way FOH system for dancefloor and several Mid/Top Zones and couple of Subs scattered across the building me thinks

 

 

 

Matt

[mojo filters]

Hello, I want to introduce my self first, I just joined up. I am in the states but this forum has had a bunch of great info for me and thought it would be the right place to post my question. I have been in live productions (sound and lights) for years, Professionally as a mobile DJ since 2000 and now run my small event rental/performance company where we rent out small to medium sound and light rigs as well as do DJ's for weddings, night clubs, and school dances. Over the years in the field and the requirement to be my own tech crew I have learned more than enough to get myself in trouble. I currently run QSC and EAW speakers with a handful of my own creation subs like a pair of Lab 12 horns.

 

There is a new night club opening and though their DJ they referred me to help with a sound system install. I told them I could sell them some of my extra gear, and get them some new parts where it counts and things I can not spare. I am writing up the proposal but wanted to run my thoughts past the forum to see if I have any pitfalls I have missed.

 

 

The room is not an easy one, it is a concrete basement, concrete walls, floors ceiling, 11' ceilings, we have framed out most of the space for bar, vip, entry, bathrooms and are left with approx 80x60 raw space, and in the middle we are going to focus on a 40x20 dance floor. There is a stage 20' by 15' at the end of the dance floor, the stage like most theaters is in the wall and the nose is flush with the wall.

 

the club is located in a College town so top 40, edm, and maybe some rock for karaoke night, being college town they want to also be able to have other events in there for football games, or maybe a piano player or something but primarily the dance club. The sound only needs to be about 10% better then the rest but I want to give them the best I can offer, the other dance place's in town have pair dbl 18's and a pair of double 15" mains, but the other places are in wood construction buildings.

 

 

 

I have 2 rigs currently both strictly FOH sound One is a powered qsc KW setup 4x kw 18" subs on the front of the stage 2 per side (10' apart) or lined up in the middle then to hang from the ceiling a pair of kw152's possibly at a 30deg angle on their sides to clearance. super simple setup, nice quality and we could add a few kw121's for monitors or fly a pair out in the back of the room facing back in to the dance floor to lower the foh sound level if it gets to loud up there.

 

rig idea # 2 my EV and EAW rig. A pair of eaw Mk5264's again on the ceiling on their sides pointed slightly down about 30deg, then 4 or 6x EV double 18 subs loaded with EVX drivers these are a very cool bandpass enclosure where the subs are mounted sideways magnets in the mouth firing out in to chambers. half of the cabs are clones and have reverse ports for port matching and would line up perfectly across the whole front of the stage for a wall of subs. While this may be able to max out the room's sound pressure levels it would be a more musical sound in my opinion, and I read on the forum if you way overkill the sound system in a club then 70% output feels almost to loud limiting a DJ wanting to turn up his mixer to the point of clipping.

 

I am working on an expensive bid with a set of 4 Funktion One 12" mains and the EV subs but at that point they are paying for the idea of a "wall of subs" and a flashy logo on some white speakers.

 

 

For my questions/concerns with my current plan is if I were to build a FOH sound system would I just create a massive power alley, and with all concrete I may get to a point with the sound having to many hot spots and bass reflections ringing that the room becomes uncomfterble. That leads to the second question, I see in most clubs they scatter speakers willy nilly around the place and don't care about time align and power alleys, I could do the same thing and the client would still love it. I know for my ability level, I can tune a front of house system better than a scattered system but if I need to change out the 15" mains with 4 or 6 12" monitors around the room because it will be the correct solution I will have to learn how to tune it. With the concrete and the bass, are we fighting an up hill battle trying to get great sound in the basement and should just get the simple qsc system in a fairly good system and not waste extra money on the high end gear?

I have one other question on my rack gear, I am going to run QSC amps (I love the sound and warranty probably the rmx series for cost) but I need some processing, for clubs I want to do a rack mount small mixer maybe 8 channel and next to no options on the face so they can not mess with it, I have this old EAW DX8 digital mixer and it would be ideal but I do not want to part with it, partly because I am having trouble finding other units on the market today with the same feature set, but when you plug in a laptop you can set it up just like a 8x10 mixer, with limiters, and outputs with all of the features a drive-rack has. Any suggestions on a 500$ or less current model rack mixer/dsp unit that can be the brain unit for the setup?

thanks for the time and expertise in advance.

 

You mention hanging/flying speakers, which may or may not be an appropriate solution.

 

However before you consider this I think it's pertinent to ask if you (or whoever will carry out this work) are suitably qualified and insured to carry out such an installation - if not I would suggest avoiding any such work, otherwise it's just a potential lawsuit waiting to cost you both money and reputation.

[CyrusZ]

Thanks for the concern and point about the rigging. It is common practice with our events to fly lots of equipment, we have the proper insurance for our own engineering how ever I would make the point that with any rig that I would allow guests to touch/move/ potently change I always have their insurance cover it as well. Here there is no authority to grant you a "rigging license" a few trade unions but still nothing just for rigging. Now for an install we are in a different industry and are governed by building and structure code which I do not have CCB#'s for, but that is an easy fix to get the client's building contractor to sink my points in the ceiling for me, and sign off on them before we begin to hang equipment.

 

 

To update the thread I ended up taking 2 FOH setups down there. The QSC k series 4x 18's/2x 152's as well as a second system of the eaw mk 15" and 4x evx dbl 18". We all held our breath as we fired up the qsc rig, with the room being still half done and without any acoustic dampening I thought it would be an echo nightmare. The QSC sounded as you would expect, and filled the room with no problem, some light bounce back from the rear wall and in the corners was heard but I was more worried on the dance floor of having several hot spots from the ceiling and floor reflections which I did not have. Switching tot he EAW/EV kit, I just had the mains set on the subs, and they currently have a longer horn in them for out door gigs, again I thought I would have an even worse reflection issue with the back of the room. The EAW/EV rig sounded as you would expect but even reduced the slight reflections the QSC set had. Part of my reason for flying was not only a lower profile but to angle the speakers at the floor/bodies to absorb sound and limit reflections from the rear wall but it was a success with no bodies in the room and in my worst case situation of pointing the mains right at the rear wall. I am still struggling with the idea of placing several other speakers out in the room for fills because of the involved time delays and balancing but at this point having the FOH sound system work so well we may just stick to those speakers and call it good enough.

 

Thanks for the replies

 

Cyrus.