How much should I charge for hire of our rig?

[BigYinUK]

Hi all

 

Bearing in mind we are trying to do this as a "business" and that the total the kit "owes" us to date is £7,500. What sort of rate should we be charging our customers?

 

Here's the rig:

 

A&H Zed 428 desk

Speakers are Announcement Audio - 2 15" B&C loaded tops and 2 dual 15" RCF loaded subs.

Amps are 2 x EV Q1212 and 2 x T.Amp TA1400

Foldback is 4 x EV ZLX12P powered wedges.

Mics, several SM58s, 4 x SM57, 1 x Beta 58a, OM5, Red5 drum set,

Outboard: 4 ch compresssor, 2 x TC Electronics FX, System Graphics.

30m snake (24 x 8)

 

 

Things we have to bear in mind:

 

1. We're not in London / M25 radius, we're in Devon

2. The PA will always go out with myself and my colleague.

3. My colleague is only 18, although he's a very experienced 18 yrs live sound wise :)

4. We don't yet have a van. I will either use 2 cars (mine is a covered pickup) or we'll hire a van for £50 locally.

 

 

Sorry, I know this is a "how long is the piece of string question". We've some ideas but it usually useful to get some ideas from the forum.

 

Regards

[smalljoshua]

Do you want to make a living from it or just hobby style and get money back on kit?

 

If the Former, I'd think about £500/night for 2x guys with all the kit. It's about the going business price this neck of the woods. If you want to just cover costs, closer to £150 (to infer that £350 for 2x guys is a good rate, 200 for you and 150 for the assistant).

 

We're Plymouth based so I'd think the numbers were similar most of the county.

 

Josh

[S&L]

interesting to read the above quoted figures. for a one/two man band (not a large commercial company) doing work-a-day sound engineering in the Lancashire area, the clients (bands) don't really care whether there are one or two bodies and the going rate for 2 hours play time, plus load-in is in the £150 to £200 region. i.e. if you want to make it try to pay £200, if you want to keep busy £150. I know of at least one large-ish regional also bring their rates into line with this.

As a colleague who does conferences says - we do conferences and visual presentation because that's where the money is - you can't make money out of mixing bands. Obviously he was talking about working local shows and not the big theatres.

 

Working at the bottom of the pile as a weekender I'm really only interested in work that I like and covering my costs and a little more but as an aside, you may like to think about the following:

 

mix only - I get asked to mix on other people's systems often and have a rate for that - you may like to think about how much it costs to take a car, a desk, outboard and mics, rather than a large rig and bigger vehicle or two vehicles

 

lights - you never get any real money for lights at this level (and I do have a good lighting engineer with decent rig that I work with occasionally) but that phone call for first work may go to someone else unless you can also provide some simple lighting.

 

smaller rig - fees are even more competitive for this sort of work but one man band colleagues I know all carry a rig capable of doing bars of less than a hundred and speakers on sticks for open mic nights etc. I do a lot with 15" tops and 15" subs, which in my case will cover 100 for a pop/rock band and 200 for a function band. when you are only getting £80 to £100 for one of these gigs, perhaps just working it single handed, you are not going to be able to fit in dual 15" subs or move them around easily.

 

edited to add - many hire firms won't hire a van on a daily rate for a weekend. it's worth establishing a relationship with a smaller outfit that will if you haven't already. I have relationships with both van and trailer hire companies with special arrangements for Saturday collections and overnight drop offs.

[TonyMitchell]

How long is a piece of string?

How often do you want to be working?

Would you rather work once/twice per month for sensible money, or most Fridays & Saturdays for less than the ideal rate per job?

Who are your customers? By that, I mean have you identified your place in the market?

 

Truth is, looking at the various types of PA jobs out there, providing for small band sound reinforcement is amongst the hardest to make money from.

 

Most bands playing for up to 3-500 pax have sufficient own kit (or think they have sufficient and do the best with what they have).

 

If you do manage to get into bed with a band as their resident soundman, you'll at best be on an equal fraction of what they are earning, as for example, the fifth member of the band.

 

As mentioned in the previous post, having some basic stage & effects lighting may help get you work, LX is something that many band members find a PITA, so whilst it probably won't see you much/any more money, it may help you get the gig.

 

 

 

[RichM]

you can't make money out of mixing bands.

 

Because weekend warriors go out with cheap kit and do it for stupidly low amounts?

[Brian]

So rates haven't gone up in over 15 years since I got out of sound? Crazy.

[BigYinUK]

...and usually it sounds bloody awful, whereas with our rig it'll sound superb :)

 

10 years ago I was taking out my 4K 12 channel rig and getting 150-180 a night for it in Sussex and was busy most weekends. I had 2 or 3 regular bands that used to keep me pretty busy.

 

The above replies are interesting as we were already thinking between £150 and £500 depending on the work/band/venue. Plus travel if the gig is over 40 miles away.

 

I'm not really interested in pub work, we're really going after function and tribute band work in 400-600 head venues.

 

There seem to be, from my experience here in the South West, plenty of bands that have their own rig (speakers on sticks) for pub work but don't have something that would be needed at a bigger venue.

 

I found it quite shocking recently to see a decent function band (decent musicians that is) think its OK to take £1500 quid for a new years gig off a posh hotel in front of 350 people and put the whole band, miked up kit, keyboards, and all, through a pair of Mackie 350s, talk about 100% THD :(

 

I've been surprised as well from experiences with my lot how many music club type venues do not have a half decent PA!

 

I can't see it making a living or anywhere near myself it but my young colleague is hopeful.

 

Tx

[dbuckley]

I found it quite shocking recently to see a decent function band (decent musicians that is) think its OK to take £1500 quid for a new years gig off a posh hotel in front of 350 people and put the whole band, miked up kit, keyboards, and all, through a pair of Mackie 350s, talk about 100% THD :(

 

An while punters are willing to put up with it, venue management will put up with it, and so the awful overdriven rigs stay.

 

Nothing really changes. When I was schlepping a pub size PA around in the 1980s, the prevailing standard was a Hiwatt 200 valve amp and a couple of WEM 4x12 columns owned by the vocalist. Despite the fact we delivered music rather than distortion, there was no shifting the incumbent solution.

 

Having said that, probably the best known local music venue here has a KV2 ES 5K rig, with a Presonus desk, its nice when venues actually invest a bit of money in a PA.

[S&L]

Rich - you can't make money out of bands because weekend warriors go out with cheap kit and do it for stupidly low amounts?

I found it quite shocking recently to see a decent function band (decent musicians that is) think its OK to take £1500 quid for a new years gig off a posh hotel in front of 350 people and put the whole band, miked up kit, keyboards, and all, through a pair of Mackie 350s

Tx

 

the point isn't that weekend warriors are killing the bottom end of the market (he says as a weekend warrior)

OR that bands are using undersized systems because they haven't thought to hire in.

 

the point is these bands set the market place. and their turnover per gig is set by their clients.

local rates for a good band playing a decent venue:

£300 for a bar gig 150 people average

£400 to £500 for a 200 head function/wedding

don't forget the £1,500 is misleading bands get double rate for NYE but expect to keep the bonus in their pocket not spend it on PA

bands WILL spend more than an equal split on PA but there are limits.

the venues set the rates as to what they can purchase reasonable entertainment work for (reasonable as defined by the tills ringing and the place occupied)

and the market is saturated with bands that can fulfil the venue criteria

entry level function rates are set by the same bands accepting the above rates and adding a bit on the rate for functions (we have to load in when? they want us to play what??)

the best of the best locally makes double the above rates, has a 9 way split and spends £200 to £300 on a regional PA co.

meanwhile the average band is 50/50 whether they are prepared to spend on outsourcing anything at all. and if they do a few venues where the system is undersized, provided their bookings sheet remains healthy, then they aren't worried.

in no place is the conversation taking place 'I like the band that played at jenny and paul's wedding - but their PA is undersized, we should go with someone else

and while there is corporate function work out there, with slightly higher price tags, it is much thinner on the ground and £200 to £300 is still the going rate to provide PA for those bands.

 

to pick up a little more on Rich's point - If a band is making less than £500 before expenses and dividing it between say 5 or more people and if that band is populated by part-timers or at least some are part timers (they have to be at those rates) then it logically follows that they would want to work with a part time outfit that reflects their pay day - they aren't unionised (by and large) and can't change the market place. once they choose to be part of that market place then it inevitably follows they will require a fellow part timer rather than top heavy cost of a full time operation. you aren't being undercut by part timers - the money was never there for full time experienced operatives and companies in any case. at least not in sustainable numbers.

 

for me the argument for fees is upside down. behri boast about bringing high tech quality to the masses - in effect all that part timers are doing is the same thing - bringing about a better quality experience - I got into sound because I was fed up of hearing bad quality at shows and would rather work a show and at least hear a decent band the way it's meant to sound. that seems a perfectly valid aim and given the limited fees in the bottom end of the market place. even when I tour with a tribute band, given the percentages that small theatres take, its not a business model that always allows for full time professional staff.

 

there is a tradition within British venues and theatres and on blue-room of part time amateurs providing a 'professional' show - whether bands in bars, am dram, school halls, musicals or small touring productions. alongside the amateurs are also full time professionals who work both at a higher level and alongside these part timers.

[paulears]

For a sensible size PA system, £150 for the kit and £150 for a person, plus miles, and probably food/some kind of subsistence - using the tribute band as the example, is about typical for what we pay. Our tribute band have a PA suitable for venues of up to maybe 1000 people? However, if a gig is a long way away, then the costs of getting our PA there as well as the band mean that a local PA can be a better deal. As the PA is mine, rather than being owned by the band, the arrangement is that I get an extra cut for use of the PA. So for us, the cost of a PA and a person is around £300.

[TonyMitchell]

I'm not really interested in pub work, we're really going after function and tribute band work in 400-600 head venues.

Although Function/Tribute style is not as demanding as straight up venue band work - a 600 pax event typically translates into no more than 150 on the dancefloor, 80 at the Casino, a few dozen seated and the rest in the vicinity of the bar/s, your FOH looks a little on the light side IMO. I'm not familiar with your mid/tops and couldn't find any specs for them, but if you find yourself set up in a big room/marquee on the long aspect, you will probably need to increase your horizontal coverage, by adding some fills or doubling up on your tops. Check the horizontal pattern of your cabs.

 

I found it quite shocking recently to see a decent function band (decent musicians that is) think its OK to take £1500 quid for a new years gig off a posh hotel in front of 350 people and put the whole band, miked up kit, keyboards, and all, through a pair of Mackie 350s...

Sounds reasonable for NYE...there's many that will charge that (and more) for a weekend wedding throughout the year. Take off costs and divide the remainder between however many in the band and you'll soon see no one is getting rich. Why would they want to add another £500 to their cost base for PA hire? It's unlikely that cost could be passed on to their client.

 

It's fair to say we do practically no work directly for bands now. We get a few enquiries from musos for these type of events, but when the quote comes out four or five times the figure they have in mind (that's before the "plus vat") it's just not going to happen.

[BigYinUK]

You're absolutely right about the pay rates being set by the clients of course but down here in the SW, £150 seems about top money for a pub gig, I don't know many pub type venues prepared to fork out much more. Which is really depressing as my band when I lived in Sussex 4 years ago wouldn't go out for less than £250.

 

There is however a lot of corporate work for business functions about and of course a huge number of hotels and holiday camps where entertainment is required in season. Judging by phone calls musician friends of mine were getting from agents leading up to the new year, there was not enough bands to fulfill the work.

 

BTW I'm also a weekend warrior by definition and this is partly where the difficulty comes with pricing the rig as I would like bands to use it and give their audiences a good sound and for it to be affordable to them but I do want to get the money back for the rig and make a little pocket money along the way.

 

Regarding Tony's comment above. I understand where you're coming from re: the band not wanting to add £500 to the cost of playing (or shelling out 30% of their proceeds on a PA depending on which way you look at it) BUT the sound was truly dreadful and people were complaining about it, so I doubt the band concerned would have been asked back the next year. As a gigging muso, I would really want to get asked back as its sometimes hard to get a foot in the door with decent venues, so personally I would have taken the hit and hired a decent PA if that had been me doing that particular gig.

 

Just to add more weight to that, it was a fantastic venue with a really classy clientele (why was I there ** laughs out loud **). Lots of mighty fine ladies sparkling on the dance floor so as good a reason as any to take a little less loot home that night but be in with a decent chance of getting the date again next year as there was nothing wrong with the musicianship or the professionalism of the band in every other way other than appalling sound..... I wouldn't have wanted to loose the chance of a repeat booking if that'd been my mob.

[S&L]

BTW I'm also a weekend warrior by definition and this is partly where the difficulty comes with pricing the rig as I would like bands to use it and give their audiences a good sound and for it to be affordable to them but I do want to get the money back for the rig and make a little pocket money along the way.

 

that's the path I walk - but I probably don't even break even straight up on paper - certainly by the time supper has been bought on the way home that pocket money is looking thin.

[BigYinUK]

There were actually 2 maybe 3 reasons why I bought the PA. First was I wanted to give the young chap I'm doing it with an opportunity to get some live work experience with his (our) own rig as he's a really nice fella, enormously enthusiastic about sound and has done me a lot of favours engineering with the band I play in, secondly the PA is there, has been and will continue to be used by projects I'm involved in and lastly I sold my stuff 4 years ago and really missed doing sound. Getting a bit old for the humping so having a youngster on board is a big bonus :)

[Paul J Need]

So rates haven't gone up in over 15 years since I got out of sound? Crazy.

 

If anything Brian rates have come down - I did a quote today for a fairly large PA and lighting, 3 man team to install, 18 hour day, 3 tonnes of kit and the customer laughed at the £1500 hire charge plus labour - they came back and said "£800 is our budget and we have sound a firm to do it for this" (Including VAT I found out later) Audio is dead - especially when folk buy kit, and do not expect to recoup the investment..... ever, instead happy to work for a fairly low daily rate.