Another "which microphone" question

[BigYinUK]

Hi all.

 

My partner and I are considering which microphone(s) we should buy to update our complement of mics for the hire PA (10k FOH, 4k Monitors).

 

A number of good suggestions have been bounced back and forth but the question I keep getting stuck on is "rider friendliness" and "client's expectations".

 

I don't think we would go far wrong buying 4 or 5 more SM58s for vocals *BUT* there are a lot of newer microphones around that are much, much better - I'm thinking about Audix, some of the Sennheisers or Shure's Beta 87a which is a terrific vocal mic.

 

My worries with vocal mics are around personal preference of the vocalist (perhaps they should have their own mic?), polar characteristics making the mic a singer is given cause him/her issues and also people's expectations - plonk a 58 in front of a singer and probably they won't raise an eyebrow but something they haven't used before/don't recognise might cause an upset.

 

So...that's vocal mics.

 

Drum mic wise an Audix set would be nice, a Shure PG set pretty OK or we could consider Red5 Audio's stuff which has, it seems, received praise on this forum.

 

I've used before and really like the SE1a's for overheads btw.

 

We've not fixed a budget for this part of the system yet btw, open to suggestions first.

 

Any ideas folks?

 

Currently we have 3 x 58s, 2 x 57s, a D112 and a few other less worthy bits and pieces.

 

Regards

 

Jon

[Electrolytic]

Vocal mics

 

genuine Shure 58's give trouble free usage. The amount of fakes I encounter is horrendous.

 

Sennheiser 845, 865, or better still 935, 945, 965. Senn'ies are rider friendly

 

I'm interested in Audio-Technica AE4100

 

you can't go wrong with those three brands

 

I thought an SE1a was good until I heard a sennheiser e914 and how open it sounded.

[mkfs9]

Just watched Nile Rodgers and chic. They used beta 58,s. So there you go.

[sam.spoons]

Beta 58s are hypercardioid so a bit less forgiving of poor mic technique. I have 3 x Beta 57s and 3 x SE-H1s (cardioid condenser based on the SE-2A capsule, very nice indeed) plus a few odds and sods (including one SM58). Not sure if the H1s are rider friendly but I only do word of mouth gigs with my own rig. At work we have Beta58s and Sennheiser 845s and mostly use the Beta58s. AKG D112, Audix and Red5 for drums.

[laolu]

AKG D5 for vox.

 

Norbert

[Bobbsy]

My answer would be totally different if it was gear for your use...Audix OM5s for vocals, the sE1As for overheads and so on.

 

However, for hire stock, you pretty much have to stick to SM58s and SM57s. Nobody loves them but nobody hates them and they exist on almost all riders.

[Doug Siddons]

As per Bobbsy no one ever really complains at SM58 when its a hire, as for drums would suggest the Red5's for toms etc but get a named kick drum mic Beta 52 D112 etc makes life easior. For over heads and general purpose condensors Audio Technika ATM450's seem to be becoming the go to mic

[S&L]

I think you will inevitably end up with two lists:

1. rider/hirer friendly

2. actually useful to yourselves.

 

vocals - if the budget stretches then no one who asks for 58 is going to turn their nose up at a 58 beta and they are at least usable. add in some Sennheiser 845's and you should be covered - no one seems to want to say 'well actually the 58's are unusable and these days we use sennheisers' - but in the countless threads I have read here and elsewhere recently and in conversation with others, Sennheisers have gained a firm foothold as more usable.

 

instruments - 57's are what folk ask for and are to be fair usable. I'm not in the rider business, so I am more than happy with a large clutch of red5 rvd30's fine for backing vox, good high gain for problematic lead vox where you are in any case sacrificing quality for usability. the rvd30's are also great for instruments, they just work with everything I put in front of them, sax, guitar, acoustic etc. BUT anyone that hasn't used them are going to look at you sidewise - hence I think you are stuck with 57's.

 

drums - you can't go wrong with a red5 set but to be honest your D112 sounds a pinch better than the red5 bass drum mic - just slightly but no one is going to complain about it. Red5's are pretty robust and cheap though - so I would be far less worried about letting out a set of red5 drum mics than a more expensive set.

 

To a certain extent I guess it depends who your hire customers are - fellow engineers are going to know the shortcomings of 58's, know the reputation of audix kit and so on - but local musicians are probably the reverse of this.

 

I should also add re the red5 gear (and I have said this recently in another thread) - get yourself on their mailing list and look out for the offers particularly last week of the month. I picked up their bass drum mic for £30 brand new in case a couple of months ago. a couple of weeks ago I tried their haggle Friday deal - I emailed a simply stupid offer to them on the last day of the month - too silly to type here - and to my great surprise they accepted the offer.

[paulears]

The Red5 kit is getting very good reviews and comments all over - even more funny when the actual kit contents are really cheap and OEM sourced Chinese products. It's nice that people do seem willing to listen to mics and how they sound, rather than slag them off for the country of origin. The tom mics in the kit cost less than $10 (US) to buy, and the condensers are only slightly dearer - plus you get a nice case too!

[Wilflet]

For filling majority of riders:

Instruments:

91 and b52a for kick (of riders I see its ahead of the sennheiser equivlants- 901 and 902)

lots of 57's, the odd b57a.

604s (an increasing number of riders are starting to move to 904s, but for the most part your looking at fairly large gigs before they'll actually object to a 604)

A couple of 906's for guitars (606 is probably acceptable to many people who asked for 906)

a few md421 and m88 if budget can stretch- often specced on bass cabs and brass. also both options for kick on lighter gigs

 

 

anything more unusual than that (ie re20s on kick, audix D4 on floor toms, yamaha sub kick mic) most engineers either want them badly enough to carry themselves or accept that small venues/local suppliers arnt going to stock them consistently.

Condensers may be the area you can most get away with a "non brand name" solution- I see a not insignificant number of riders that just specify a small diaphragm condenser on hats/ride, but speciific mics on everything else. and unless your doing very big names most engineers who wanted a sm81/c451/e614/e914 wont mind swapping to another one of those. Maybe 60% of shows I do in a 300 capacity venue the engineers never ask what we have on hats/ride/overhead when discussing mics (in his case it is 451s and AT4041s- so it high level stuff, but unless the cheaper mics are really bad I think people would rather have their first choice kick and vocal mics and accept anything that makes cymbals appear on the channel than the other way round)

 

Vocals:

58s are always worth stocking- many hires will "just want some 58s and a couple of 57s" because to people who know a bit about sound its synonymous with vocal mic, and its better to give them what they ask for rather than our first dealing with every client being "we dont stock them, but honestly this is better and what you want really" with anything else.

Maybe consider stocking 58s and 945s- that way you have both a mix of cardiod and hypercardiod and a mix of brands. If someone wants 58s they can have it, if someone wants somthing more directional (b58, b57) then you can give them the choice of directional sennheiser or a 58, if they want a 935 then you can offer the 945 if they have the mic technique or 58 as a back up if not. thats probably the closest you can get to covering all the bases without stocking everything.

I wouldnt bother with 965- lovely mic but its never on riders. Id classify it with things like ksm9 - if I decide thats the mic I want on a voice Im not relying on venues or local suppliers having any and I'd bring my own. Every time iv seen in on riders theyve been carrying them with the tour. I'd not bother with AT or DPA vocals for the same reason.

 

 

[birt]

as others have mentioned, for vocals just go for 58, beta 58 or a good handheld sennheiser. you'll have no complaints about those.

for instruments I would get a 906 (guitar amps), MD421 (guitar amps, horns, jazzy kick drum), an audix or sennheiser set for the drums (with clip-on's for toms), audix i5 is great on anything (I've even used it with succes in front of a cello), get a 57 for the people who think it's great on anything and to avoid discussions with them. and an octave MK 012 set with different capsules for cheap great sounding overheads/room mics/general purpose small diaphragm condensers.

[ninjadingle]

Another consideration for a hire stock would be losses - if I sent out 6 SM58's and only got 5 back, I could still send the PA out with 5 while I recovered the missing one (or went through the lengthy route of arguing with client to get it replaced etc...).

 

I personally would stick with SM58's and SM57's to send out, if its for your own gigs then the more expensive mics (Betas and Senns etc) recommended above would be a better choice, at least you can account for them at the end of the gig and watch how they're used!

[Electrolytic]

Another consideration for a hire stock would be losses - if I sent out 6 SM58's and only got 5 back, I could still send the PA out with 5 while I recovered the missing one (or went through the lengthy route of arguing with client to get it replaced etc...).

 

I personally would stick with SM58's and SM57's to send out, if its for your own gigs then the more expensive mics (Betas and Senns etc) recommended above would be a better choice, at least you can account for them at the end of the gig and watch how they're used!

 

and make sure the genuine 58's that you send out all come back an not swapped with fakes! engrave that gear!

[S&L]

thinking about the chinese question - tbone EM700's have been mentioned in other blogs recently, they work great for hi-hats, percussion etc but not sure if you could consider them robust enough for hire out.

re red5's - my understanding is that their drum and dynamic mics use bodies common to some other brands (maybe made in the same factory?) - but the capsules are specifically designed and quality controlled by Red5 - can anyone verify this or put a picture up of same bodied mics with their capsules? I have a couple of red5's at home with me to do a show and tell if anyone is interested?

[jamesperrett]

If I was hiring a premium PA I would expect to see only established mic manufacturers on the gear list. I would only expect to see the likes of Red5 and SE on the sort of budget PA's that I probably wouldn't bother hiring.