solving a compact multicore monitoring problem

[S&L]

this isn't an urgent issue - it will be a few months before this becomes an issue again but...

many of the bars/functions I work on with bands can be done with a simple and compact 16/4 multicore - for the last 6 months that's been a thomann sssnake 16/4 - not sure how robust it would be if thrown around by lots of crew but for us it's excellent, the clear numbering and chunky XLRs at the desk end as well as colour coding of the desk end make it much easier and faster to connect the average snake but I digress.

My issue is with multiple monitors on a show this size.

a 16/4 has 4 returns to the stage, with 2 used for main LR that leaves 2 signals for monitors. now on some shows we only use 2 monitors and on others we split the signal so that 2 monitors share a signal. but even on these compact shows it would be useful to have 4 monitor mixes. and by the time I need 4 separate monitor mixes, we are usually running 15 or 16 channels so there are no spare ways on the 16. this leaves me with the following options:

1. run a second 16/4 snake just for monitors - we do this and we have one that is less pliable (like wrangling a python) and an 8/4 that is long and bulky too.

2. we could buy a second 16/4 but that seems overkill for a few more monitor signals.

3. buy an 8 way multicore over say 20/30m with tails each end - but that costs almost as much as a 16/4 - and I can't seem to find a 2 or 4 way multicre that length.

4. spend a day with a soldering iron - possible but not really cost effective.

with larger shows the band or the venue often provide and ever so occasionally we hire - more often than not we simply put two 16/4's x 30m down side by side

so this is only a problem being 2 monitor signals short for our small bread and butter shows. part of the issue is we often don't need more than 10 or 15 metres run and 2nd snakes take up room in the trailer and on stage/wherever we store the excess. but I feel we need a 30m run.

Is there a solution that I'm missing - maybe a 4 way reel that has reversed connections? or a 4 way coil with tails each end?

I should add that unless something goes horribly wrong I'm allergic to using mic cables connected end to end for this purpose

separately I'm also looking for a 4 way XLR x 2m to patch a 4 way DI to the snake.

It would appear that 4 ways of any length aren't popular.

[peza2010]

We own a few 4 way looms of various sizing.

 

panel mount male and female XLRs on the reel and then the gender changing connectors (whose name has vanished from my head at this time)

 

Very useful in the fact that it can be 4 lines to stage or from stage or a mixture of both.

[S&L]

We own a few 4 way looms of various sizing.

 

panel mount male and female XLRs on the reel and then the gender changing connectors (whose name has vanished from my head at this time)

 

Very useful in the fact that it can be 4 lines to stage or from stage or a mixture of both.

 

the gender changers aren't a problem - if we have to - but what's your source for 4 way multicores? with or without reels I'm damned if I can find any with that few connections?

[top-cat]

Tell me if I am missing something, but it seems to me that you have a multicore with 16 sends and 4 returns, and you want 6 returns.

 

Why complicate this any further than getting 2 XLR leads, the same length as the multicore... and PVC taping them to the side of the multi? Job done, simple as you like.

[S&L]

Tell me if I am missing something, but it seems to me that you have a multicore with 16 sends and 4 returns, and you want 6 returns.

 

Why complicate this any further than getting 2 XLR leads, the same length as the multicore... and PVC taping them to the side of the multi? Job done, simple as you like.

 

30m XLR leads? I had naively assumed such a thing didn't exist but googling them - there they are. However, I did make up a 10m stereo pair recently taping two together and it does get bulky quite quickly. I do get rather preoccupied with compacting gear for these small shows maybe I need to be a bit more chilled about it! I don't think I would tape it to the multicore but taping a pair of 30m XLR leads together and laying them side by side seems reasonable if I can't find a better solution

[Wilflet]

of course 30's exist. It tends to be sold in 100m drums and you make what you need. My local hire company stocks several 30m, 40, and even the odd 50m for the ocasional comms in a big venue situation. (or hanging mics off a house grid where you dont want a mid air join).

 

Somewhere Iv got a 20m length of a 2 pair cable. its not much worse than normal mic string to coil and has 2 XLRs on each end. Iv seen the same cable used on orchestra shows (where you have 2 violinists etc sharing a music stand you run 2 pair to each desk then plug the dpa cable into each one) having the number of XLR cables on stage (atleast around the violin, cello and bass sections).

[beware]

Studio spares do a 16/8 30m Multicore...

[laolu]

Hope you stay happy with your thomann snake. I had the opposite experience, and I can assert that I am very careful with all my equipment. The snake worked fine when new, but over a year or so one after the other channels got lost. The single wires inside the snake are ridiculously thin. Of course, there must be a compromise between robustness and flexibility, but I am disappointed with the quality of this thomann product. I cut off a foot or so and re-soldered everything. Fine sofar. But the feeling that sooner or later another channel will go belly up is there.

 

A little off topic, just thought I mention it since you're using a thomann snake.

 

Norbert.

 

 

[revbobuk]

What I do is (since monitor returns are balanced feeds to a power amp) use a single Cat5 cable, with a box at each end to derive 4 XLR connectors. It's lightweight, cheap, balanced, and easy. Not carrying phantom power isn't an issue, as this is line level aux feeds to an amp. Simples!

[peza2010]

We own a few 4 way looms of various sizing.

 

panel mount male and female XLRs on the reel and then the gender changing connectors (whose name has vanished from my head at this time)

 

Very useful in the fact that it can be 4 lines to stage or from stage or a mixture of both.

 

the gender changers aren't a problem - if we have to - but what's your source for 4 way multicores? with or without reels I'm damned if I can find any with that few connections?

 

buy empty reels and populate them with what you want.

[top-cat]

Tell me if I am missing something, but it seems to me that you have a multicore with 16 sends and 4 returns, and you want 6 returns.

 

Why complicate this any further than getting 2 XLR leads, the same length as the multicore... and PVC taping them to the side of the multi? Job done, simple as you like.

 

30m XLR leads? I had naively assumed such a thing didn't exist but googling them - there they are. However, I did make up a 10m stereo pair recently taping two together and it does get bulky quite quickly. I do get rather preoccupied with compacting gear for these small shows maybe I need to be a bit more chilled about it! I don't think I would tape it to the multicore but taping a pair of 30m XLR leads together and laying them side by side seems reasonable if I can't find a better solution

 

 

 

Sometimes the answer is the kiss principle - Keep It Simple Stupid.

[S&L]

useful stuff - thanks guys. just a few follow ups:

 

Wiflet - the 2 pair you refer to was your own soldering concoction I assume? I do like the idea of a 30m 2 pair XLR ended - may be time to get the soldering iron out.

Norbet - worrying news - I have found a lot of the thomann own brand stuff really well thought out and built for the price. but I can't have this snake failing, these are fast set up shows, on a budget and without much redundancy. How many shows along did your first line go? and was it this one?:

http://www.thomann.de/gb/the_sssnake_sk415-30_multicore.htm

It would be useful to read reviews from unhappy users on the site before purchase.

I did look at beware's suggestion previously but a studiospares 16/8 x 30m is £240 which is pretty steep for my budget and would probably mean having to buy 2nd hand - never ideal with multicores.

I guess we all end up with a large collection of multicores and cables and sooner or later the soldering iron comes out for something but I did find this afternoon the following at audispares which may go some way towards solving my problem

1. twin XLR x 1.5m patch for my DI £3.79 - a couple of these have to be on my shopping list.

2. 20m XLR for £9.36 - probably not the best quality and 10m shorter than our snake but taping 2 of these together will solve the monitor issue for most shows I can see coming up to June next year. for £20 and a half hour taping together it seems like a decent solution

thanks for all your help guys!

[TonyMitchell]

1. twin XLR x 1.5m patch for my DI £3.79 - a couple of these have to be on my shopping list.

2. 20m XLR for £9.36 - probably not the best quality and 10m shorter than our snake but taping 2 of these together will solve the monitor issue for most shows I can see coming up to June next year. for £20 and a half hour taping together it seems like a decent solution

 

I recommend you avoid cheap ready made cables - the connectors WILL let you down - not "if" but "when" that happens, it will be when you most don't want it to and you'll kick yourself for not spending a few pounds more on Neutrik.

[S&L]

1. twin XLR x 1.5m patch for my DI £3.79 - a couple of these have to be on my shopping list.

2. 20m XLR for £9.36 - probably not the best quality and 10m shorter than our snake but taping 2 of these together will solve the monitor issue for most shows I can see coming up to June next year. for £20 and a half hour taping together it seems like a decent solution

 

I recommend you avoid cheap ready made cables - the connectors WILL let you down - not "if" but "when" that happens, it will be when you most don't want it to and you'll kick yourself for not spending a few pounds more on Neutrik.

 

I understnad the concern but we do run to a tight budget when we use our own gear penny wise pound foolish maybe but you have to have the pounds or time to sit and make your own cables. our mic cables are mainly cheap pulse from cpc http://cpc.farnell.com/pulse/pls00245/lead-XLR-plug-socket-10m-nickel/dp/AV14374

and patch leads / short XLR's tend to be rean http://cpc.farnell.com/rean/nra-000-0330-091/XLR-lead-m-to-f-30ft/dp/AV18033

the main snake for these small shows is the thomann listed above

we have an 8 way x 6m XLR to clr and a 6 way snake with stagebox for sub snakes etc and they both have similar connectors to the audiospares cables.

We test and check regularly and in 3 years I think we have had one of the rean cables grip lock come loose and so the cable was retired.

this is the gear we use for our own small self contained bar and function work as distinct from the theatre work where gear is hired in or provided.

we always carry spares and a solder iron.

no one would dispute that neutrik connectors are ideal but the only cable we have had fail on us in 3 years was a failure as distinct from a loose clip and it was a hire-in 6m XLR with neutrik ends from a very large and well known company.

If I used only 'professional' gear for bar work it would be cost prohibitive - we HAVE TO value engineer where we reliably can. and sometimes that means I have gone my own way and purchased gear that other engineers turn their noses up at - red5 and thomann mics, pulse cables and stands. I DO understand the argument in favour of good cables but I hope others understand that there is a case in some worlds for value engineering even cable purchases.

[dbuckley]

I'm so naughty; I often run returns unbalanced, and so I get twice as many returns as I should...

 

Of course, this only works if the rig is electrically quiet to start with, otherwise one enters ground loop territory.

 

This terrible practice started when I discovered that a 16/4 multicore hired from a (very reputable) local supplier had 3.5 working returns, and to make that faulty return work I had to go unbalanced on pin 3 hot(!), and much to my surprise, it worked without the rig descending into a cesspit of noise and hummmmm....

 

(I also have a 10m two balanced line multi, but that is another story; FFD closed their doors many years ago)