Augmenting a PA

[Tomu2]

Hi all .

im new ro this forum but have been browsing posts for sometime now . Some fantastic info on here . Anyway I got a question . I play in a 9 piece soul band doing small to medium venues . We have 3 main vocals . 2 sax . Keys . Guitar . Bass and drums . Although we rarely mic bass drum or di bass . We currently have a pair of rcf 322a . And an rcf 705 as 15 inch sub . Now we were considering adding a pair af rcf 710a mk2 to the set up . Would this be beneficial to give us more power and a better . Clearer sound . Please excuse me . I am not that good when it comes to pa . Any advice would be greatly appreciated . Thanks

[mkfs9]

Another sub would be better before more mid high cabs.that would be a nice balanced rig then.

[sam.spoons]

I'd say if you don't DI the bass or mic the kick you don't really need a sub at all let alone two of them (sorry mkfs9) as everything else should be hi pass filtered at 80-120 Hz or higher. Where do you feel your rig is lacking?

[mkfs9]

He said he rarely mics bass and drums so he does sometimes. He would have a rig for most situations then.

[paulears]

He also said small to medium sized rooms, so there's going to be a lot of bass guitar and kick before the PA gets added, so I must say I wonder about the wisdom of more bass - nicer full range could be a nice improvement. A 9 piece soul band aren't exactly quiet - so the drums and bass are likely to be fairly potent already.

[sam.spoons]

I run a single EV SbA750 sub (750watts/128dB max) and a pair of QSC K12 tops (1000watts/131dB each) so fairly similar in power/output to the op's rig.

 

I play in and/or supply/run PA for a range of different performers/bands/styles from acoustic singer/guitarists to soul/funk bands and pub rock bands. Venues usually up to around 150 for the louder end, 300ish for the more gentle acts. I don't do the heavy rock/metal end of the spectrum or loud dance music.

 

I pretty much always mic the drums (kick/snare/overhead at least) and guitars and DI the bass but I can't recall ever having felt my single sub was underpowered in relation to the tops, in fact I often find myself turning the sub down as it can easily overpower the smaller rooms I find myself working in.

 

I'll admit I favour clean and intelligible over sheer volume so I probably don't run as loud as some SEs might but I do get consistently good feedback (no.. not that kind...http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) from bands, promoters and audience members about the results I achieve.

 

Given the OPs original brief I'd like to hear where he feels his rig is letting him down, it may be that (as he professes to be "not that good when it comes to pa") more attention to eq, gates and (especially) HPFs would get him the result he is searching for.

[Tomu2]

Hi All ,

 

Thanks for the replies , much appreciated .

 

Where do I think it lets us down , I sometimes think that as we have so much going through the 322s , IE , 3 main vocal , 2 backing vocal , tenor sax , alto sax , guitar and keys , I suppose I worry a bit about pushing our speakers .

 

Also we had a guy in the band who had a couple of 300w mackies that we daisy chained to the rcfs at a rehearsal , and I thort the sound was much crisper , and clearer , the vocals sounded great and the saxs cut through very well .

 

I just feel that maybe things get lost in the mix with just the two tops , great speakers though they are .

 

Thanks again for the replies guys .

 

Always happy to hear advice from people with more PA knowledge than myself

 

 

 

[mkfs9]

By putting all frequencies below 100 hz into subs will clean up the sound in your mid high cabs.

[Tomu2]

Hi mkfs9 ,

 

So what would I need to set the x over at on the sub , 80 , 100 or 120 ?

 

I think its on 120 at the moment .

 

Thanks

 

 

 

[sam.spoons]

By putting all frequencies below 100 hz into subs will clean up the sound in your mid high cabs.

 

 

+1 but only the bass and kick have those frequencies. They probably don't need amplifying ( in fact the OP says he doesn't except occasionally though, to be fair, I always do if only a little, see my previous post). Everything else needs sub 100Hz removing with a HPF. Are you doing this? What desk are you using and what instruments do you usually run through it?

 

The rehearsal scenario is not a true test as you won't be running at full on gig levels. Adding a second pair of speakers can make as many problems than it solves, did you do a simple 'with and without' comparison when you had the extra cabs? Make sure you walk the room as you can get an uneven response with two tops each side (certain frequencies cancel out in one part of the room and reinforce in another). To put this in perspective adding a second set of identical speakers, correctly matched and positioned) will increase your output by 3dB (in the mid/highs, as an extra sub will in the bottom end), not much in real life.

 

 

 

 

[Tomu2]

By putting all frequencies below 100 hz into subs will clean up the sound in your mid high cabs.

 

 

+1 but only the bass and kick have those frequencies. They probably don't need amplifying ( in fact the OP says he doesn't except occasionally though, to be fair, I always do if only a little, see my previous post). Everything else needs sub 100Hz removing with a HPF. Are you doing this? What desk are you using and what instruments do you usually run through it?

 

The rehearsal scenario is not a true test as you won't be running at full on gig levels. Adding a second pair of speakers can make as many problems than it solves, did you do a simple 'with and without' comparison when you had the extra cabs? Make sure you walk the room as you can get an uneven response with two tops each side (certain frequencies cancel out in one part of the room and reinforce in another). To put this in perspective adding a second set of identical speakers, correctly matched and positioned) will increase your output by 3dB (in the mid/highs, as an extra sub will in the bottom end), not much in real life.

 

Yeah we tried with the 300w mackies and without , there was a clear difference in clarity , didn't sound bad without them mind , but sounded so much better with them :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh , The desk we use is a behringer 2222 , not the best I know , but was all we could afford at the time

[dosxuk]

Oh , The desk we use is a behringer 2222 , not the best I know , but was all we could afford at the time

 

Have you considered hiring / borrowing another, better quality, desk from someone? Every component in the system will affect the overall output, and just upgrading the speakers may not make the overall sound better. Depending on the quality of that particular desk (I've not used it), you might find you get a better / clearer sound from spending some money on upgrading the desk rather than buying more speakers.

[sam.spoons]

Good value for the money. Berry kit of old was not the best but usually delivered well enough. Mic inputs have a 'lo cut' button, the pic says it's 75Hz and 18dB/octave which is pretty useful. You should have these engaged on everything except kick and bass. Run your sub crossover at 80Hz and most of the stage 'mush' should be kept out of the sub. Then use the low eq to reduce still further the low end of guitars, keys and vocals (solo the channel, listen on headphones and reduce the bass until the vocal sounds 'thin' then bring it back up slightly, guitars, keys and horns can be left sounding slightly 'thin' as it will help them 'cut through' while reducing the low mid clutter in the mix. Nearly all amplified instruments/voices have quite a lot of low mid going on so it can get a bit overpowering, cut it on selected instruments which don't really need it to make their contribution and the sound cleans up quite a lot (acoustic guitarsin a band context , for example, often work best with severe low mid and bass cut, they sound awful in isolation but just right in the overall mix.

 

 

You have 8 mic inputs and 7 stereo inputs so how do you share them out amongst the band?

 

 

Edit... Trying a better desk would be worthwhile too, I guess I'm just mean (even with other peoples money http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[Hypersound]

A few random thoughts on this.

Firstly, brass is loud and I wouldn't put it through the PA in a small venue but not everybody will have the same idea of what a small venue is. With 9 of you, it can't be that small. Anyways, I would not put brass through the PA unless I felt I had to.

Secondly, I would pretty much always mic up the kick and, if I had one mic for backline, I would probably use it for the kick because of the conflict with the bass. Bass is low on my list of things to mic.

Thirdly, the things that are usually going to have the most impact on your sound are the source (including mics, the speakers and your mixer, especially the mic preamps. I would probably suggest you try a different mixer before changing your speakers or adding extra ones.

Fourthly, using multiple speakers in the same frequency band is generally a bad idea unless the speakers in question were specifically designed to work that way. If you do want to try it then you might want to think about using one pair of high/mids for vocals and the other pair for the band.

Lots of generalisms and wasn't it Sam Goldwyn who said that generalisms are generally wrong. Lots of people will have different ideas but hope some of it helps.

[sam.spoons]

A few random thoughts on this.

Firstly, brass is loud and I wouldn't put it through the PA in a small venue but not everybody will have the same idea of what a small venue is. With 9 of you, it can't be that small. Anyways, I would not put brass through the PA unless I felt I had to.

 

 

I tend to mic everything even in smaller venues but you are right, brass is pretty loud.

 

Secondly, I would pretty much always mic up the kick and, if I had one mic for backline, I would probably use it for the kick because of the conflict with the bass. Bass is low on my list of things to mic.

 

+1

 

Thirdly, the things that are usually going to have the most impact on your sound are the source (including mics, the speakers and your mixer, especially the mic preamps. I would probably suggest you try a different mixer before changing your speakers or adding extra ones.

 

Agreed to a point, the source usually refers to the instrument and mic. Mixer mic pres are pretty good these days and would be the least of my worries, the next candidate for change would usually be the speakers but the RCF 322s are probably well up to the job so in this case the mixer may be the weak link but I'd expect it to give decent results.

 

Fourthly, using multiple speakers in the same frequency band is generally a bad idea unless the speakers in question were specifically designed to work that way. If you do want to try it then you might want to think about using one pair of high/mids for vocals and the other pair for the band.

 

Agreed, and using the second set for vox only is an approach I've seen used to good effect where gear is limited, good call Hypersoundhttp://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif

 

Mainly I'd look at HPFs and eq though. Spending more money may not achieve the desired result at gig levels.