Am I doing something horribly wrong?

[bitofagiggle]

Did a gig the other night with my band. I used my PA system but got someone else to do sound for us. I don't know him very well but apparently he seriously knows what he's doing (friend of a friend).

 

Now... I'm not the most experienced technician in my area (I'm 20 and I've been doing sound as a hobby for about a year and a half) but I'm damn well not the worst. At gigs I've done sound for in the past with my rig I've had nothing but good feedback and people coming up saying how good they thought it sounded (granted they weren't technicians). So, I can't be doing THAT badly...... Can I? :/

 

Anyway, after the gig, this guy who was doing sound for us comes up to me and starts seriously slagging off my gear (and I do mean seriously...) and tells me that he could not believe how little clarity my rig had. He went on to show me at the mixing desk that on the 7 band, system EQ, he'd basically pushed the bass right up as far as it would go, fading down to about a 25% cut on the treble in more or less a straight line. On the channel strips he'd also turned the high to about 8o'clock and the mid to 9o'clock. He said even after doing this the system had no bass what so ever and the vocals had no clarity to speak of. He just kept going on about how awful the rig was that he couldn't believe it. My gut feeling is if he'd cut nearly all the treble and mid and boosted all the bass then why the hell was he wondering why there was no clarity?!

 

I can't decide wether;

1) This guy knows something that I don't

2) He felt he had to give a strong opinion because he's the 'more experienced' out of the two of us

or 3) He was just plain being an a-hole.

 

Could someone please let me know if without my realising I'm using the worst rig known to man because I've never doubted my own ears so much! I know this is a fairly budget system, but am I so far off the mark for pub gigs?

 

 

My rig:

 

2x NJD NJ560 http://www.njd.co.uk...aspx?prod=nj560

2x NJD NJ562 http://www.njd.co.uk...aspx?prod=nj562

 

Behringer Eurodesk SL3242FX-PRO

 

Audiohead AH1800 power amp

 

Behringer FBQ3102 Ultragraph-PRO

 

Mic was a Shure Super 55.

[samchurchill]

A curious one - I've been wracking my brain but really can't work out what he might have been trying to do with it in that setup. The only thing I can think of is that he's got the EQ all round the wrong way, but I've never seen a desk with it in the non-standard way.

 

I would seriously question his credentials.

 

However, after re-reading...

 

It appears he didn't think there was enough bass and was trying to overcompensate to the extreme. Are you sure your subs were working/connected properly? Even so, I would expect an experienced engineer to know when they'd gone too far with the EQ. I assume your 31-band EQ had fairly normal settings?

[bitofagiggle]

I assume your 31-band EQ had fairly normal settings?

 

I set the system up before he arrived with the graphic in line. By the end of the gig he said "I had to take that out". When I asked him why he just kinda ignored me and went on a tangent?

 

And yeah I checked that all four speakers were working. He didn't tell me about any 'faults' with the system but I dunno... He could have re wired some stuff maybe but I can't see why he would.

[Electrolytic]

I assume your 31-band EQ had fairly normal settings?

 

I set the system up before he arrived with the graphic in line. By the end of the gig he said "I had to take that out". When I asked him why he just kinda ignored me and went on a tangent?

 

And yeah I checked that all four speakers were working. He didn't tell me about any 'faults' with the system but I dunno... He could have re wired some stuff maybe but I can't see why he would.

 

you have to question why he would have to take that out, when than can be used to correct the bass issue so what.

 

he's obviously not very professional if he slated your gear to your face like that, he could have more tact and given you a helpful suggestion on how to improve the system in his opinion.

 

A bad workman always blames his tools and all that.

 

depends what your playing through it, systems of tops on bottoms often lack bass for a heavy band, a lot of energy is required for LF compared to HF. Two subs a side would be nice but will the tops be able to keep up? I'm not saying he's right, its depends on the application.

[Bobbsy]

Without hearing your rig I can only guess...but complaining about a lack of clarity then turning down all the highs and turning up all the bass sounds totally wrong. Clarity comes from the mids and highs, thump comes from the bass.

 

Frankly, if I walked up to a rig that I had to EQ as you describe, I'd be looking for other sources of problems and not just pushing the EQ way out of whack.

 

I can only guess but I'm rather suspicious of the other guy's competence.

[kerry davies]

I presume you haven't had a gig or rehearsal since and checked whether everything is working? As long as it is and you are getting the sound that you want and the punters like I suggest you forget about it.

 

Removing bits of your set-up without discussing it with you seems indicative of rudeness rather than constructive criticism. It's your gig and your kit not his and whatever level of gear he is accustomed to he should be able to use the equipment at hand without just slagging it off.

[paulears]

There are two elements. First is the technical side and the other is his competence and attitude. Your system isn't going to sound like many 'big' PAs, but that doesn't mean it has to sound bad. His 'need' to try to force it to produce bass it simply can't simply shows he's not got a grasp of sound. Most of us have used sound systems that lack in some department, and you cope with them. My experience over the last year is that a small, modest PA used properly can out-sound a mega system used poorly. There's also a misunderstanding about creating the sound that people want - as in treating a country and western band like a grunge metal band. It's also disrespectful to use somebodies system and then slag it off. A competent person would have looked at it, predicted the potential sound and worked within it. When I've turned up somewhere, like this weekend, and seen a rather weak PA, it's nice to hear the band sound good, because the person working it knows that no matter what he does, the bass guitar is not going to be prominent - so it gets mixed to sound nice, not strained.

 

The guy has upset you and warped your opinion of your system. Just ignore it and after checking he's not actually broken something, carry on.

[fincaman]

If your friend of a friend is using EQ like that he is CLUELESS so don't get upset about your system I think that well worn saying "a bad workman blames his tools" applies here. One small piece of advice for the future, always try to take prominent frequencies down rather than boosting weaker ones but it's a massive subject and there will always be exceptions

[Original Beef]

Where about in North Wales are you? If you're not too far away I would come and have a look at your system for you, just pay my fuel and buy me a McDonalds or something if you like. I'm based near Mold.

[S&L]

twenty odd years ago I was a bass player in a band - the guitarist's friend, a 'sound engineer', kept politely telling me my bass was too load - at every gig he came to. I used to get worried I was doing something wrong or that I wasn't hearing what I was supposed to. A few years ago I was recounting this story to someone:

'oh him...he hates any bass in the sound, he would turn bass players off if he could...you should hear his car stereo!'

 

1. always take your gear apart after subjective criticism and see what's working and what's not. I did this a month ago, and found that the bass bin wasn't iffy just a freak of the room that meant I couldn't hear it the way I normally would. the monitors weren't dying just one of th guys in the band I was mixing loses his top end hearing in proportion to his alcohol intake. By checking we get chance to hear our gear in a no-pressure environment and then form a judgement about both our gear other people's complaints.

2. that graphic isn't top of the line but providing it is functioning and set reasonably then it's perfectly fine - I use the same one with my bar rig. the first thing I check at every gig (by playing a cd) is if I am getting a signal and the right sort of sound out of every box, individually - monitors and FOH speakers. set up times in a bar can be compressed but time spent here will pay off. then I set the graphic to adjust for the room swallowing bass or whatever else the problem is. I walk the course while I do this - in a bar much more than a theatre, the sound at the desk may be completely different to other parts of the room. obviously position the desk where you get something representative of where the audience is but sometimes it isn't possible to do this and have line of site to the band or PA.

3. taking the graphic out of line on that system is a dead give away - it's arguably the best thing in that signal chain.

4. those speakers are not great - re your other post, put the money towards the speakers before the desk would be my gut. the speakers will tend to be a little muddy and indistinct but no more so than slightly more expensive direct competitors like Peavey etc.

5. the quality expectations of bar bands has gone up dramatically in the last 15 years. it's fairly usual to see speaker boxes from HK, EV, mackie, Turbosund. Don't bin your boxes because they don't have those labels but do some research and listen to the the local bands with the most professional approach and great sound - genre is less relevant here - in fact avoiding hard rock will probably illustrate the point better. BUT that doesn't mean you can't continue to coax a half decent sound from your existing boxes. when YOU can hear what's wrong with your NJD's may be a good time to change. I worked on Peavey speakers for ages and know every little issue with them. they were a good training ground for me and my ears worked out quickly what they weren't doing that I wanted them to do - and what they were doing that I didn't want. - I wouldn't use them again by choice now.

[TonyMitchell]

@OP - It appears you're getting a reasonable sound from your rig, and by trying some of the tips you'll pick up here, will probably be able to make some improvements and sage investments in new pieces of kit along the way.

 

As far as matey boy is concerned, I'd ignore his opinions. Don't let him get you down about what you're doing. He clearly doesn't know how to use a GEQ, nor how to to look at the system he is mixing on and understand it's limits and work within them, to get the best possible sound. I would wager that your knowledge and professionalism may be superior to his and the ranting & raving is an ego trip to compensate for his inability to do a walk-up job well.

 

Seeing he is 'a friend of a friend', in your shoes I'd be tempted to call his bluff and offer to roadie for him, in return for shadowing him at FOH for a night or two. There are three possible outcomes - (1) you go along and learn something useful from a true pro, (2) you confirm he's a bull*****r, (3) he refuses the offer... make your own mind up on that one.

 

 

 

 

[gibbothegreat]

I'm surprised people have missed the obvious - come on, what this guy did is straight out of the sound engineer's manual - under the chapter 'Troubleshooting - what to do if there's still not enough distortion.'

 

In terms of the EQ: one of the many things I love about digital desks is the clear visual representtion of how much even a small EQ change takes out or puts into the sound. I would be intrigued to model what this guy did and see what it looks like: I suspect I'd rather see it than hear it!

 

As others have said - check your gear is OK, if it is ignore him (after all, if he's like that with you, how would he deal with a 'difficult' client?) and lose his number.

[jamesperrett]

I assume your 31-band EQ had fairly normal settings?

 

I set the system up before he arrived with the graphic in line. By the end of the gig he said "I had to take that out". When I asked him why he just kinda ignored me and went on a tangent?

 

 

I must admit that I've been known to bypass the graphics if I haven't been confident in how the system was set up. However, in these cases, you could see that there was a problem because the graphic settings were much more extreme than I'd expect from someone who knows how to set up a system.

 

James.

[Alec]

Maybe he'd not turned the subs on?

 

Honestly, though, if your shows are normally fine, don't obsess about it - he's most likely a ######.

 

The venue I engineer in is pretty average. 300 capacity, GL2400-32 desk, DB Technologies Fifty Line Plus stacks. Nothing special, granted, but quite capable of doing justice to pretty much any act within the limitations of the room itself. In all the years I've been working there, I've had just 2 visiting engineers that I've been really happy to see the back of because they never stop declaring how bad our kit is - almost to the point of the show being apparently unworkable.

 

Yes, I get that we may not have the best kit, and that they may be used to better, but come on, any engineer worth their salt can make a half decent system rock. And it's certainly not stopped any of our other acts/engineers...

 

I've just learnt to smile sweetly and look forward to the next gig!

[bitofagiggle]

Thanks for the input guys. I guess now I'm kinda glad this happened because reading what you all have to say has given me a slightly different viewpoint on how I take criticism and there being an element of 'picking and choosing' from tips other engineers give me.

 

I'm thinking maybe I will upgrade my tops after Christmas when I have some spare cash, possibly try to design it so that I can always add my NJDs back in to make a 'bigger' rig if needed.

Can anyone suggest some mid-price range cabs I should take a look at or try to hear?

 

Where about in North Wales are you? If you're not too far away I would come and have a look at your system for you, just pay my fuel and buy me a McDonalds or something if you like. I'm based near Mold.

 

I'm based in Llanrwst but nearly all my gigs and sound jobs are between Colwyn Bay and Rhyl. Perhaps we could meet at one of the gigs so you can see it in action and I'll buy you a drink and that Maccies! Haha.