In Ears and the ups and downs thereof

[BigYinUK]

Hi again everyone.

 

Well, the band has more or less decided that we're going to migrate to an In-Ears only monitoring scenario using the Behringer Powerplay system to control our individual mixes and a mix of Shure 215 and Westone UM2 earphones, some wired, some wireless. We've looked at other systems but they're all either too expensive or won't give us enough individual mixes as we are convinced that we can't work with a system where we share a mix.

 

I'm of the opinion that whatever we do must work 100% or we'll get someone dissenting and a mix of in-ears and wedge monitors seems to defeat the whole object of the exercise.

 

This post however is really about the in-ears side of things and how best to arrange our backline.

 

The main purpose of this exercise is to keep on-stage volume really low so our singer can hear herself and pitch properly.

 

Our initial thoughts are that we won't have any amps/speakers on stage at all. The bass player will DI straight into the mixer along with all our keyboards and sound fx. Drums will come in as a submix from the main foh mixer aux, vocals (5 off) we'll use XLR splitters before the stage box OR the whole feed will come from direct outs on the foh desk and come back down to us via cat5 / ethernet.

 

The most difficult one is probably my guitar. - On Friday evening I tried a scenario where the speaker cab was in a back room with a mic in front of it, all covered in a blanket! I heard myself only through the monitor wedge. Even though it was my idea, I was a bit skeptical that it would work but tbh it was OK. FOH was controlling my monitor mix which wasn't ideal but it was usable and the sound levels on stage were definitely lower as a result. The amp was really cranked (in the green room) so the overall guitar sound was great.

 

My only big issue with using in-ears instead of a monitor wedge is that two of my guitar solos need the guitar - amp - guitar feedback or just won't work at all. With the sound coming through my monitor wedge this was OK as I just cranked the overdrive and could get a nice controlled feedback but with in-ears I can see this being a big issue. Don't get me wrong I'm not a "my guitar has to be mega loud" player as 21 of our 23 songs will work perfectly well with the guitar at any level, its just these 2 specific songs that will be a problem.

 

Initially I'm thinking that I'll have to reconnect the internal speaker in the combo just for these 2 songs which are encores anyway so its doable that way at least.

 

Whenever I see artists performing with in ears there always seems to be backline on stage so I'm interested in exactly how things are managed to give guitar players the sounds they need but keep the on-stage volume sensible.

 

Anyone have any experience / advice for this type of scenario? What are the pros and cons?

 

Regards

 

Jon

[Wilflet]

If your going to do off stage amps in another room ensure

a) its going to be a secure room- you dont want to do it in a shared dressing room with the support band having a party in there.

b)invest in some dam long cables (loom of power and jack one way, XLR back) Iv seen these rooms be 50m from stage box on occasions.

 

Another common option is using modeling preamps to get the tone and give FoH a line level out from that.

 

as for the feedback- a few years ago I localed for the production rehearsals before a muse tour- they're all on ears, the only live backline on stage was one 4x12 cab, amps and effects were offstage and sound was only fed to the cab when it was needed for feedback- silent stage at all other times.

You want to do the same sort of thing but find a way of switching with pedals (cheaper than a guitar tech) I guess.

One thing I will say about that method is in the size venues your going to be doing turning a cab from off to feedback level for a solo is going to be considerably more noticable to the audience than it would be on arena/stadium shows. So think about the placement of this speaker- dont point it at the crowd, pointing across the stage is one option, for smaller cabs on the floor by the pedal board where the wedge would have been angeled up is another (dependent on playing stance)

[BigYinUK]

Hi wilflet

 

Another idea I had wrt speaker cabs is to copy what Rush did a few years back. They used something they called a "dog kennel", which as far as I could work out was a 4x12 shut in a flight case with a mic in front of the speakers. This seems quite a nice solution as you could have the flight case on stage nearby but no noise would escape from a foam padded case. You could also put a speaker jack or more likely a Speakon and an XLR on the side of the case so you wouldn't even have to open it to connect up.

 

Sorry but I hate modelling amps, I've had several, still use one at home actually for practice, but to my ears nothing does it like a couple of cooking EL84s :)

 

I only use a small combo so putting it in front of me angled up like a monitor wedge would work and solve the increased noise to the audience issue although we mainly do bigger venues and aren't planning any small gigs next year tbh.

 

Switching the speaker back on might be an issue with impedance matching but I could maybe use a THD Powerbrake and just crank that to a suitable level for the feedback solos.

 

 

Thanks for your reply.

[paulears]

There's the old story told by Metaliica's Big Mick, where their guitar cabs are in a big sound treated cab, and he had very odd banging noises, which turned out to be the crew sitting on the flightcase and their heels kicking the box!

 

I don't suppose there's a way of getting real feedback without making the noise - is there? It does seem a shame, as you've gone to silent stage.

 

I'm getting resistance to IEMs from my band. In the stage rack there are 4 IEM transmitters, plus amps, and we have 2x12" turbo sound wedges. So far the closest I've got is the drummer, who loves in-ears. The others still insist on the wedges. If I could leave the wedges and cabling out, it would really help - but so far, it's not happened.

[Wilflet]

Amps in boxes with mics in are another pretty common solution, especially when you cant guarentee a room for your amps to mic off stage. You'd be surprised how much noise comes out the case, but its certainly an improvment, and can be in the wings or behind the stage or elsewhere.

 

as for impedance matching etc if you have your pedal board, then a splitter type pedal one output goes to your amp thats miced all the time, the other goes via a switch/tuner pedal to the combo, which you can then turn on and off it shouldnt effect the miced amp atall but will introduce the feedback

 

edit: we may also be using different definitions of bigger venues, a lot of venues up to maybe 2,000 a significant portion of the audience will still be near enough to hear an amp make a difference if its in the conventional posistion in my opinion.

[BigYinUK]

Thanks Wilflet

 

 

edit: we may also be using different definitions of bigger venues, a lot of venues up to maybe 2,000 a significant portion of the audience will still be near enough to hear an amp make a difference if its in the conventional posistion in my opinion.

 

[/Quote]

 

Useful to know as c450-600 capacity venues is typical for the size of place we try and play. The combo pointed back up at me I'd guess would help a lot?

 

Regarding impedance matching. I'm talking about only using the one amp, ie the combo and switching back in the internal speaker when feedback is required. So a more complex 2 way switch or something like a THD unit which presents a fixed impedance to the amp would be necessary I'd think.

 

Jon

[Wilflet]

yes it should help.

 

Iv certainly had problems with backline levels impacting the front of house sound in academy sized venues, 4-500 capacity id definitely play around both with position and keep it as quiet it can be to still work well.

Obviously how big an impact backline has on audience areas is a function of how loud you run your amps, the fact you regularly come to a forum like this wanting to work on these areas is probably a sign your not running at the kind of levels some bands seem to insist on to begin with.

[BigYinUK]

@ Paulears

 

I sympathise. A mixed environment probably not the best idea.

 

I've been doing this (gigging and PA) for a long time now, probably 35 years ish. TBH I've only ever had a monitor mix exactly as I want/need it a couple of times. Musicians underestimate I think just how much difference it makes to the whole band's playing if people can *really* hear themselves properly and by that I mean hear each other as well.

 

To me IEMs with individual mixes seems the ideal scenario but I'm worried about the guitar feedback bit and a little concerned about just how well IEMs will work with the bass guitar. Everyone in our band is fully committed to giving it they're best shot though. If it doesn't work there will be a lot of Behringer / Shure / Westone kit on eBay I guess :)

 

@ Wilflet

 

 

Obviously how big an impact backline has on audience areas is a function of how loud you run your amps, the fact you regularly come to a forum like this wanting to work on these areas is probably a sign your not running at the kind of levels some bands seem to insist on to begin with.

 

[/Quote]

 

You're right on that :) Its not a heavy rock band to begin with, so there's no necessity to run the amps really hard, plus I only use a 40w combo with a 1 x 12 in it (and now a 1 x 12 cab to go back stage) so its not going to be very loud. The sort of feedback I'm aiming for doesn't seem to need the amp particularly loud anyway, I can get it at home with my 5 watt practice amp!

 

The whole band is very committed to working together to get the best sound possible for the act.

 

We played in London on Friday night. Sold out at the 400 capacity venue we played. It was wall to wall :) OK not a big venue but we're obviously doing something right.

[dbuckley]

The sort of feedback I'm aiming for doesn't seem to need the amp particularly loud anyway, I can get it at home with my 5 watt practice amp!

 

Now I'd like you to think about that statement a few times. When you twig that this is the amp that you need to take on gigs, then we're really making progress.

 

I quite like it that the Orange Tiny Terror is becoming a respected cool thing to have on stage.

 

Another idea I had wrt speaker cabs is to copy what Rush did a few years back. They used something they called a "dog kennel", which as far as I could work out was a 4x12 shut in a flight case with a mic in front of the speakers.

 

There's the old story told by Metaliica's Big Mick, where their guitar cabs are in a big sound treated cab

 

So I'm wondering when the "speaker and mic in a box" thing started? I know of it being done (in decent size gigs) in 1984, and claim it on behalf of a mate, but was anyone doing this before that?

[david.elsbury]

Now I'd like you to think about that statement a few times. When you twig that this is the amp that you need to take on gigs, then we're really making progress.

 

+1. When I got one of the guitarists from "my" pub/covers band to realise this, we had a breakthrough with onstage volume and foldback issues.

 

(The day we finally got rid of the deaf drummer who insisted on bashing the kit and refused in-ears was a pretty good day also ;) )

David

[dbuckley]

I've posted this (not very high quality!) picture before, this is how I got a quieter pit at a panto...

 

http://davidbuckley.name/pix/ickle_marshall.jpg

[BigYinUK]

@dbuckley

 

The sort of feedback I'm aiming for doesn't seem to need the amp particularly loud anyway, I can get it at home with my 5 watt practice amp!

 

Now don't get me started...... Seriously I had thought about that but for one thing its only one channel and for another I can't get the "sparkly, fender clean" sounds from it that the music requires. I'm happy with my 40w combo tbh. It does everything very well. I have 2 Marshall 100w with 4 x 12s at home but they're really not suitable, way too loud for what we do.

 

If we do start making money out of this band then I'd go for something like the Blackstar Artisan which is 15watt. That'd work well but is twice the price of my current amp.

 

ATEOTD I'm keen to get volume levels down but I'm still a guitar player :)

[dbuckley]

Ok, use a modeller for most of what you do, and the little 5w combo when you need to scream. Keeps the weight and carrying down, and modellers are really very good. And they considerably simplify the stage setup.

 

But that means sometimes your geetar comes through the modeller, and sometimes out the combo with the '57 in front. More channels than you need the soundman to handle. So...... use the modeller all the time for what comes out FOH, but just engage the little combo to give you on stage level boost needed for the feedbacky stuff.

 

Edited to add - at one point I was using 150W of Marshall EL34s in clubs, and thats probably why my hearing is less good than I would like it to be... flaps the trousers nicely though! As I've noted a few times, I'd kill people to transport my GX700 back to the seventies and eighties...

[BigYinUK]

I have used modellers in the studio and have some Line 6 stuff at home. I haven't yet found one that gets near to the sound of a real valve amp cranked or otherwise. Its very difficult to put in words what is missing but (IMO) there is a "quality" and depth to the sound that is lacking. Much like the argument that is digital v. analogue its difficult to define. I just go with analogue has a nicer, warmer more natural sound.

[ojc123]

I have used modellers in the studio and have some Line 6 stuff at home. I haven't yet found one that gets near to the sound of a real valve amp cranked or otherwise. Its very difficult to put in words what is missing but (IMO) there is a "quality" and depth to the sound that is lacking. Much like the argument that is digital v. analogue its difficult to define. I just go with analogue has a nicer, warmer more natural sound.

I completely agree. Modellers are a poor second to valves. My Mesa Mk1 :wub: even at the kind of volume I use in the house just sounds infinitely richer than any modeller I've heard. The deep, smooth distortion of the valves is just bliss.

 

I just keep it turned down on stage. It's also raised and tilted up towards my ears so that it isn't overwhelming for anyone else. I sometimes let the (more sensible) students use it. They generally have modelling amps and it's amusing to see the expressions when they play through the real thing.

 

The feedback is a different issue. I have no idea how to solve that one.