Budget condenser for vocals?

[dickiefunk]

Hi,

 

I'm considering picking up a condenser mic for live vocals. I am currently using AKG D5's as my general vocal mics which are great but I'm curious to hear how a condenser would sound.

 

I intend to use the mic on a wide range of styles and both male and female vocals.

The PA that I'm using is a pair of Yamaha DXR15's with a pair of EV ELX 118p subs.I run the speakers with a Presonus studiolive mixer.

 

I've been reading a few reviews on the following:-

 

Lewitt MTP 340 CM £79

Rode M2 £69

LD Systems D1011 £43

Samson C05 £42

 

My question is how well these mics will perform compared to dynamics such as the AKG D5 or Sennheiser E838/E840? The gigs that they will be used in will vary from something like an acoustic solo artist to full bands with brass section etc. Some of the venues will be clubs, small concert halls and marquees and the spaces to set up will vary CONSIDERABLY!! Sometimes the bands have to cram into tiny spaces with loud drummers so I'm concerned that I may have feedback issues if I use a condenser?

 

Also, how would these condenser's perform regarding proximity, handling noise and bleed from other instruments on stage?

[GaryNattrass]

Condenser mics generally have higher gain than dynamics so can have their uses although a hyper cardioid dynamic will always giv the best rejection for PA but you need a user that knows how to perform with it.

If you are not needing mega levels an omni condenser can also be useful and a lot of old recordings feature such mics as they can be used very close with little proximity effect.

I think a lot of people will be quite surprised how much omni condensers have been used in the past and just watch some of the old top of the pops programmes to see the small pencil condensers being used when artists were actually singing live.

Of course a 20k PA rig will not be the best at the other end but they can have their uses for certain performers!

[laolu]

In terms of handling noise they are generally better than dynamics.

Also has to do with handling: they fall down once and may be (internally) damaged for ever. The two brands you mention (AKG and Sennheiser) are more robust, and of course there is a certain Shure type that seems to be almost unkaputtable :P. So if your performers are careful and/or use a stand, I'd say go for a Rode. They make very decent mics for the budget.

 

Norbert

[paulears]

I've had some Shure condensers in the mic box for a long time now, and they've not been as useful as I thought. The flatter some voices but are difficult with others. You can pop a 58 or a Beta58 on most people and the results with eq are useable, but the condensers often just sound a bit harsh, and they get swapped. The longest soundcheck I witnessed for one mic was Sarah Millican - no singing, no shouting, no problem monitors - just talking. I think she must have done half her act before going back to a 58!

 

I wouldn't even look at a dynamic in the studio, but on stage, I favour a decent dynamic - although the Senn 865 - that I don't have, always sounds to me like a nice dynamic, not the condenser it is!

[dickiefunk]

Thanks for the replies so far. Unfortunately I'm not able to get to hear any of these mics as the nearest store that sells these is a few hundred miles away!

 

I guess my main concerns with the condenser is feedback, mic bleed and harsh sound?

 

I'm not quite sure whether I should get an M2 or Lewitt 340, or just get another D5 or Sennheiser E838!? There is a deal on with the D5 for £53 with a free mic stand!! That seems like a fantastic deal and I'm not sure if I could justify spending more on a mic? Ideally I would quite like a Heil PR22UT but these cost double the price of a D5!?

[Oldradiohand]

Cardioid condensers are a pain to use live - they tend to pop when used close (unless you're using those really nice expensive Neumann ones) and the cheap ones are a bit fragile - and you need phantom power (there has to be a thread about the evils of phantoms somewhere on here)

Omnis are good but tend to be expensive and will still pop easily (AKG used to do a lovely omni capsule for the 451 that had a blanked off top with slots just behind - brilliant for close vocals, Anyone know of anything similar?)

So, if you want a mic that won't pop easily, has reasonable handling characteristics, will survive being frequently dropped and won't break the bank, go for a decent dynamic.

[Pete Alcock]

Hi Dickiefunk,

 

One of my favourite mics and the one I keep coming back to is the LD1011. They are incredible value for money, and contra to what some folks say about popping, these really don't. I have a reasonable selection of vocal mics including 58s, Beta 58s, E935, a Beta87© and a Neumann KMS105, and on occasions (especially with loud stages) I find the 1011 is the best sounding, and this is not just mine but the bands/artists view too. An SM58, although a great mic, frequently sounds rather dull in comparison to the condensers. What astonished me (and I'll probably get shot down for saying this), is how little difference there is in sound between an LD1011 and the KMS in a live situation! (Sure you would notice in a studio, or with an exceptional vocalist and a very good PA). What I'm saying is it doesn't always amount to £300 worth of difference.

 

This is an off-desk recording of a nice close-up performance and the vocal mic is an LD1011. The artist is Rachel More. Live recording

 

Trust this helps,

 

Pete.

[david.elsbury]

... and you need phantom power (there has to be a thread about the evils of phantoms somewhere on here)

What exactly is wrong with phantom power? 99% of my stages have phantom power on them, from lecturn mics to DI boxes - and I have never had an issue?

 

David

[fincaman]

I have found condenser mics next to useless in live situations especially if you have timid vocalists and need to get high levels. After much experimenting I use Beta 57s or 58s.

[dickiefunk]

Hi Dickiefunk,

 

One of my favourite mics and the one I keep coming back to is the LD1011. They are incredible value for money, and contra to what some folks say about popping, these really don't. I have a reasonable selection of vocal mics including 58s, Beta 58s, E935, a Beta87© and a Neumann KMS105, and on occasions (especially with loud stages) I find the 1011 is the best sounding, and this is not just mine but the bands/artists view too. An SM58, although a great mic, frequently sounds rather dull in comparison to the condensers. What astonished me (and I'll probably get shot down for saying this), is how little difference there is in sound between an LD1011 and the KMS in a live situation! (Sure you would notice in a studio, or with an exceptional vocalist and a very good PA). What I'm saying is it doesn't always amount to £300 worth of difference.

 

This is an off-desk recording of a nice close-up performance and the vocal mic is an LD1011. The artist is Rachel More. Live recording

 

Trust this helps,

 

Pete.

 

Thanks Pete. Yes I very interested in the LD1011. One thing I noticed from that clip was quite a lot of noise? Was this from the LD mic? Also, it would appear to have a fairly low output for a condenser?

 

 

 

[handyandi]

Have a listen to this podcast with Bob Heil where he talks about why condensers are not ideal in live use & why the Heil dynamics are so good sounding. Convinced me in buying his mics & am certainly not disappointed.

[dickiefunk]

Have a listen to this podcast with Bob Heil where he talks about why condensers are not ideal in live use & why the Heil dynamics are so good sounding. Convinced me in buying his mics & am certainly not disappointed.

 

Most high end sound engineers I know pick condensers for live vocals!? I'll have a listen to the podcast!

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is an off-desk recording of a nice close-up performance and the vocal mic is an LD1011. The artist is Rachel More. Live recording

 

Trust this helps,

 

Pete.

 

Just had a listen to this on some high end headphones and noticed that the LD1011 seems very sensitive to plosives and pops? Nice live recording overall though!

 

 

 

[Oldradiohand]

... and you need phantom power (there has to be a thread about the evils of phantoms somewhere on here)

What exactly is wrong with phantom power? 99% of my stages have phantom power on them, from lecturn mics to DI boxes - and I have never had an issue?

 

David

 

Well. It's supposed to be 48v at a max of 10mA but I've had problems were some kit won't supply enough current to allow the mic to produce it's full dynamic range . Then there's the issues of not quite balanced cables, missing or intermittent earths, damaging kit by hot plugging mics with the faders open and hissing, fizzing and plopping if the diaphragm gets damp with spit (or just atmospheric condensation).

And I know high end engineers use suitable condensers - they've got the budget!

[dbuckley]

The problem with condensors is that they, as a breed, are simply too accurate and honest for PA use.

 

Every forum that deals with sound has threads that go round in circles about which is the best mic for guitar or snare or whatever, and the answer is never "the only answer is a really high quality condensor that will pick up every nuance with perfect fidelity", the answer is some (generally) dynamic that colours the sound in a way we find pleasing.

 

There are things that condensors do well that dynamic mics do less well, and that is where condensors are used.

 

That said, there are real applications for condensors where their qualities are appreciated, I know the bluegrass crowd have a technique suitable for their style which often features a decent stereo condensor mic.

 

In the recording studio, of course, a whole different set of rules applies...

[Oldradiohand]

I don't mind using condensers for live work, actually - they're really good for instruments and condenser fig8s can be really useful for rejecting unwanted stuff, but I won't use one for vocals - unless it's one of them really nice Neumanns specially designed for the job.

BUT there are always exceptions....