A little tease from Allen & Heath

[Doug Siddons]

I don't understand why people are surprised that a 'feature' that is present on more expensive desks is not on the entry level models. That's how you create an up-selling model.

 

Again, Behringer are in a pretty good position here, because it's unlikely that the X32 family is going to start cannibalising sales of Midas products, no matter how many features they pack into them. But A&H need to be careful that successors to the QU16 aren't encroaching on iLive sales.

 

I understand that Ilive sales will suffer

I had my first play on the GLD80 yesterday and its actually rather good - I'm told a lot of the features of the GLD have found the way on to the QU16 and we'll certainly be buying a couple of QU16s to our hire stock. The price per features on the QU16 is frankly amazing when you add to the mix (excuse the pun) the mic pre-amps being of the same standard as the Ilive, and the double record facility - the ability to record 16 tracks on to hard disc or Mac at the same time is brilliant. The suggested retail price of £1699 inc VAT will I'm sure give Yamaha and Beringher a run for their money.

 

This is actually quite worrying for early adopters as the feature set of new desks compared to that of those five years old suddenly puts a real hole in the resale value of those older desks

[Simon Lewis]

This is actually quite worrying for early adopters as the feature set of new desks compared to that of those five years old suddenly puts a real hole in the resale value of those older desks

 

Very true... but as our mixing desks become more and more like [specialised] computers, they will increasingly share their short life span, high depreciation and commoditisation.

 

I suspect that the way we work out return on investment calculations may have to change....

 

Simon

 

 

[dco_uk]

So,I bought a qu16 to add to our hire stock to fill the gap for a small format, lightweight digital board that could be used on small jobs and where budget does not allows the client anything else.

 

 

For the money, you really cant go wrong AND a complete idiot could use it. Everything is where you would expect it to be!

 

As has been said,, its a bit limiting that its not expandable, but if I want more channels, I send out a different desk.

 

My only wish would be some assignable GEQ's. As it stands, there are only GEQ available on mix's 1-4 and L/R with none being available to put over channel strip the other aux outs.

 

Maybe this will be something they will add in the future?

 

 

I did look at the expressions, but the lack of full PEQ and the fact that the ipad app is about as useful as the Midas one put me off!

[OneEng]

So,I bought a qu16 to add to our hire stock to fill the gap for a small format, lightweight digital board that could be used on small jobs and where budget does not allows the client anything else.

 

 

For the money, you really cant go wrong AND a complete idiot could use it. Everything is where you would expect it to be!

 

As has been said,, its a bit limiting that its not expandable, but if I want more channels, I send out a different desk.

 

My only wish would be some assignable GEQ's. As it stands, there are only GEQ available on mix's 1-4 and L/R with none being available to put over channel strip the other aux outs.

 

Maybe this will be something they will add in the future?

 

 

I did look at the expressions, but the lack of full PEQ and the fact that the ipad app is about as useful as the Midas one put me off!

 

doc,

 

Have you had the opportunity to mix anything on the X32 as to have a comparison of sound quality (specifically vocal efx)?

 

Thanks for the information. There are so few out there reporting on this new and exciting mixer.

 

 

 

[Dave SA]

Can't say I've come across an instance yet where I've thought 'I need more EQ' with our Expressions. The fact you can just whack some channels to a group (mix) really easily, and that will have a graphic and extra bands of parametric on it makes it hard to run out of EQ.

 

The effects on the Expression are great too.

 

I didn't even realise the QU16 was so limited in terms of features. Seems a strange choice by A&H.

[OneEng]

Can't say I've come across an instance yet where I've thought 'I need more EQ' with our Expressions. The fact you can just whack some channels to a group (mix) really easily, and that will have a graphic and extra bands of parametric on it makes it hard to run out of EQ.

 

The effects on the Expression are great too.

 

I didn't even realise the QU16 was so limited in terms of features. Seems a strange choice by A&H.

 

I think that there is always a trade-off with digital mixers between the number of features, the ease of use, and cost.

 

The Expression Si looks to be a really nice mixer, but they decided not to include the ability to record and playback multi-track without requiring a $1K USD MADI card being added. For some this is no big deal. Sadly, for me it puts it out of the running since this would bring the price up to ~ $3500.00 USD compared to A&H Qu-16 at $2500.00 USD and Behringer X32 Producer at $2000 USD.

 

I also think that there is the possibility for a firmware upgrade for the Qu-16 which would allow the use of a digital snake connecting to more channels. There is a custom layer that could be used for 16 more channels for this purpose I think.

 

I am bummed about the lack of DCA's though. I have also heard that the shipping firmware does not allow remote mixing. This is pretty hard to justify in today's digital mixer market IMHO.

 

 

 

[dbuckley]

I think that there is always a trade-off with digital mixers between the number of features, the ease of use, and cost.

 

If you're talking about physical features like knobs, faders, inputs and outputs, then yes, every extra thing is more price.

 

If the topic is software features, then unless the manufacturer has absolutely skimped on the DSP, then features are software, and have a per-mixer cost of zero. Sure there is development cost, but that can be amortised, and generally, if you've developed a digital mixer, then the resources needed are on the payroll anyway.

 

By far and away the biggest reason for not putting in features is so that buyers need to buy the next model up, good old market segmentation. Why no DCAs on a LS-9? If you want DCAs, Sir, you need to buy a bigger mixer.

 

So Behringer are currently in "ask for it, and we'll stick it in" mode. They don't have a range of mixers by feature set, they have a range by form factor and I/O count. Whereas A&H have to protect their GLD product. A&H always want it to be clear to the customer whether they are a GLD customer, or a QU16 customer. Customer has to see value in jumping from the entry level product to the next one up, with the attendant increase in expenditure that goes with that decision.

[Matt Riley]

By far and away the biggest reason for not putting in features is so that buyers need to buy the next model up, good old market segmentation. Why no DCAs on a LS-9? If you want DCAs, Sir, you need to buy a bigger mixer.

 

So Behringer are currently in "ask for it, and we'll stick it in" mode. They don't have a range of mixers by feature set, they have a range by form factor and I/O count. Whereas A&H have to protect their GLD product. A&H always want it to be clear to the customer whether they are a GLD customer, or a QU16 customer. Customer has to see value in jumping from the entry level product to the next one up, with the attendant increase in expenditure that goes with that decision.

It's very interesting! I'm looking at the options at the moment for a x32 price point digi desk for our second venue (we've got a 48 channel ilive system in the main venue - which is...ok)

 

I think the Qu16 is a great desk. It's pitched a fraction high price wise - but not high enough that it's going to put anyone off. I think the bigger issue is that we want the Qu16 to be a GLD. The GLD is basically what we all want out of a 2-3k desk, however A+H seem to have delusions of grandeur with their GLD pricing. It's got the scribble strips, it's a well designed and well laid out desk with the perfect feature set for a GL series replacement (funny that!) but in my mind, when I look at the price, I just think "probably a better idea to find the extra couple of grand and get a Midas Pro1 instead." If they took the price down to £2500 + stagebox then I think the race would be well and truly won.

 

Oh - and while I'm on my soapbox about A+H pricing - now might be a good idea for them to stop charging for the ilive app as well - we dropped 12k on an ilive system - the least they could do is allow us to have a decent ipad app that doesn't cost $99.99 - especially as most engineers use their personal ipad, so we'd all have to find the cash :(

[dbuckley]

The GLD is basically what we all want out of a 2-3k desk, however A+H seem to have delusions of grandeur with their GLD pricing. It's got the scribble strips, it's a well designed and well laid out desk with the perfect feature set for a GL series replacement (funny that!) but in my mind, when I look at the price, I just think "probably a better idea to find the extra couple of grand and get a Midas Pro1 instead." If they took the price down to £2500 + stagebox then I think the race would be well and truly won.

 

The only reason you think the GLD pricing is a tad high is because the X32 exists. If the X32 didn't exist, then the GLD would look priced "about right", and all would be well in the world.

 

I worry for A&Hs continued existence in a post-X32 world. The analogue GLs are such a good product, and until comparatively recently, were such a reliable seller. But the X32 has redefined the entry point of serious mixing, the place that for years belonged to the GLs. Whilst there is no denying that A&H have great products, I think the QU16 and GLDs will have market penetration issues over time. The next generation of engineers will cut their teeth on the X32, and subsequently move up to the entry level Midas, and then up through the Midas range.

 

Suggests this kind of future:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFiDoOgRTpk

[Dave C]

The next generation of engineers will cut their teeth on the X32, and subsequently move up to the entry level Midas, and then up through the Midas range.

 

 

 

Not sure about this. There ARE other options than X32 and even midas... Better ones in my opinion! Even starting on an X32, there is no automatic reason to 'graduate' onto a midas. It's easy enough to jump into AH, Yamaha, Digico, etc (and other options appearing too like Cadac, SSL, etc) at the middle and upper end of the market.

 

Just because the X32 is the cheapest 32 channel digital platform does NOT make it the best. Just the cheapest. It's not even the cheapest anyway.... I'd STILL take an 01V96 over it anyday.

[Alec]

I'd STILL take an 01V96 over [an X32] anyday.

 

Interested to hear why?

 

I run an 01V96 as my personal rig, and it was great value for money a couple of years back.

 

However: no affordable digital snake, no scribble strips, no graphics EQs, only 4 monitor sends (without expansion), only 12 mic-pres, no recallable mic-pres, no virtual channel strip. Yes, it's compact and a reliable workhorse, but the X32's got loads over it now.

[OneEng]

The X32 has surely been a game changer.

 

I believe that Mackie was the first to react to the REAL first MI grade digital mixer (SL16.4.2). I think that all other companies (Soundcraft, Line 6, Allen & Heath) were all developing their MI segment digital mixers to compete with Presonus, not Behringer.

 

.... and why should they? How many here would have predicted that Behringer would create a 32 channel digital mix board with such a complete feature set? Well, honestly, I think we may have believed that. What was really hard to believe was that the thing sounded so good ...... and was pretty darned reliable too.

 

I think that the Qu16 and Expression Si (and DL1608) are all designed to be "StudioLive killers"..... and they are. The Mackie delivers much better features in a smaller package at half the price (Of course, it has no physical mix surface). Both the Qu16 and the Expression Si are much better contenders than the 16.4.2.

 

As long as the X32 is left out of the equation, everything makes sense.

 

Of all the digital mixers in the MI market, I think that the Qu16 has the most going for it as a contender to the Behringer offerings. There are still many people that will not buy Behringer no matter what. The motorized faders, recording capability, and remote / recallable preamps on the Qu16 along with the iLive efx engine really makes the Qu16 an attractive option.

 

The X32 Producer doesn't have scribble strips either, so it loses a little of its shine compared to the X32 and Compact. I don't buy into the idea that there was no room for the LCD scribble strips either. I think it was a cost save plain and simple. Still, it is understandable for a $2000.00 USD board that is rack mountable. Unlike the Qu16, the iPad app is free as is the PC app. You get 8 mix engines instead of 4, and the X32 Producer retains the DCA and matrix mixes that the Qu16 lacks.

[parky58]

The answer I found to the absence of scribble strips is magnetic tape

 

It comes in different widths and is really useful when mixing for multiple bands. I have several strips pre-cut which store nicely in the bottom of the mixer and I use permanent marker which can be cleaned off with meths after the gig, or saved for a repeat performance.

 

http://www.sparxsound.co.uk/images/032.jpg

[Dave C]

I'd STILL take an 01V96 over [an X32] anyday.

 

Interested to hear why?

 

I run an 01V96 as my personal rig, and it was great value for money a couple of years back.

 

However: no affordable digital snake, no scribble strips, no graphics EQs, only 4 monitor sends (without expansion), only 12 mic-pres, no recallable mic-pres, no virtual channel strip. Yes, it's compact and a reliable workhorse, but the X32's got loads over it now.

 

 

Why?

 

10 years operating reliability on my personal unit. Zero crashes, faults or faliures. Yamaha have been doing digital audio for longer than many X32 'engineers' will have been alive.

 

Analog inserts available. for all mic inputs.

 

 

taking your points:

 

Scribble strips? you mean white PVC tape? the (beloved by many) Midas H3k hasn't got scribble strips. ?Neither do a LOT of fantastic consoles. I can 'scribble' on the PVC strip quicker than type it digtially on a touchscreen.

 

Parametric Eq is superior to Graphic for PA and wedge tuning.

 

More than 4 monitors should have a monitor board. Or an ADAT expander unit.

 

12 mic pres - get an ADAT expander. cheap and cheerful.

 

Most situations dont' REALLY need recallable preamps. How about those midas H3k's? They haven't got them and few would complain...

 

Em, it has a virtual EQ and pan strip...

 

 

Plus - it takes up less seats in a theatre....32 channels and half the size of X32.

 

I'll give you the digital snake. But I already own a copper one. or five.

 

X32 is an interesting platform though. I'm not not keeping an eye on it. Just dont need/want it now.

 

Dave.

[OneEng]

I'd STILL take an 01V96 over [an X32] anyday.

 

Interested to hear why?

 

I run an 01V96 as my personal rig, and it was great value for money a couple of years back.

 

However: no affordable digital snake, no scribble strips, no graphics EQs, only 4 monitor sends (without expansion), only 12 mic-pres, no recallable mic-pres, no virtual channel strip. Yes, it's compact and a reliable workhorse, but the X32's got loads over it now.

 

 

Why?

 

10 years operating reliability on my personal unit. Zero crashes, faults or faliures. Yamaha have been doing digital audio for longer than many X32 'engineers' will have been alive.

 

Analog inserts available. for all mic inputs.

 

 

taking your points:

 

Scribble strips? you mean white PVC tape? the (beloved by many) Midas H3k hasn't got scribble strips. ?Neither do a LOT of fantastic consoles. I can 'scribble' on the PVC strip quicker than type it digtially on a touchscreen.

 

Parametric Eq is superior to Graphic for PA and wedge tuning.

 

More than 4 monitors should have a monitor board. Or an ADAT expander unit.

 

12 mic pres - get an ADAT expander. cheap and cheerful.

 

Most situations dont' REALLY need recallable preamps. How about those midas H3k's? They haven't got them and few would complain...

 

Em, it has a virtual EQ and pan strip...

 

 

Plus - it takes up less seats in a theatre....32 channels and half the size of X32.

 

I'll give you the digital snake. But I already own a copper one. or five.

 

X32 is an interesting platform though. I'm not not keeping an eye on it. Just dont need/want it now.

 

Dave.

LCD scribble strips change with the layer you are on. The idea of a digital mix board with many layers not having LCD scribble strips is kind of silly IMHO. This is especially true the more the faders are re-used for multiple purposes ..... which ALL digital boards do. The ones that do it more, need the LCD scribble strips more IMHO.

 

Additionally, the comparison of the X32 to the 01v96i heavily falls in the favor of the X32 in every category with the possible exception of reliability. Since the X32 has been out only a bit over a year, I don't personally think we should start raving about how robust the mechanical interface has been just yet. The 01v on the other hand has a remarkable proven track record for reliability.

 

If size is such an issue, then the X32 producer or X32 Rack with a P16 stage box would give you 32 channels in a very small space.

 

The 01v was a great mixer in its time. Unfortunately, technology moved on and now it is behind the curve. I don't think I could recommend the 01v to anyone for live sound over the X32, Qu16, or Soundcraft Si.

 

I have heard several people who have digital mixers that DON'T have recallable pre's state that they aren't needed........ Really? Why not?

 

Perhaps lead guitar players in the UK don't turn up after soundcheck the way they do here in the states ;) I suppose if you don't do any remote mixing, then you wont miss the remote preamp gains for this particular use case.

 

Also, having scenes stored which include the preamp gains is essential for switching between bands and setups quickly.

 

I would pose the question back to you. Given the option to have the feature or not have the feature, why would anyone NOT want it?

 

Finally, the very idea that in this new age of digital boards that are so affordable and feature rich that we should all carry around MORE external gear so we can have separate monitor mixers, separate PEQ's, separate efx units, etc is crazy. Why would you want all that if you can get the features in a digital mixer?

 

I am a little disappointed in the Qu16. I would have liked to see them launch it with the iLive iPad app working, and for it to have at least DCA's if not matrix mixes. I also think it is BS that they charge for the iPad app.