Typical live sound setup

[dedwards96]

Hi

 

For my school's next theatre production which is a musical, we are going to need to have a live sound reinforcement system in place.

 

I am fairly confident in setting equipment up but could do with a simple overview of a typical live sound setup including DI'd keyboards, radio mics, two PA speakers, and two separate monitors (one for cast, one for band).

 

Please just ask if I'm unclear.

 

Thanks, Dan.

[JCC1996]

It's absolutely impossible to advise you properly with that info, but I can give you some info from previous shows I've done.

 

Radio mic receivers will be plugged via XLR cables into mic inputs on you mixer; ideally each of these will have a compressor inserted into the channel, but that isn't always budgeted for and it is possible to do without.

 

Keyboard will be DI'd in stereo (1/4" jack lead from the left output into one DI and anther from the right into a second DI box) then the XLR output will go into two inputs of the mixer.

 

The FOH mix (main speakers) will come from the main L and R outputs of the mixer (usually XLR). This will either go straight to active speakers, or through an amp into passive speakers. Just make sure you never plug an amp into active speakers!!

 

Monitors will come from AUX sends on the mixer. For example AUX 1 might be band mons and AUX 2 stage mons. The connections for these are the same as for FOH, except they will come from the AUX outputs on the back of the mixer. How you configure these will depend on the mixer and what you want to put in each mix.

 

Here is a simplified diagram of my Little Shop of Horrors setup. We also had graphic EQ's on FOH and Monitor mixes, as well as feeds for hearing aid induction loop and side fill speakers. SO the setup can be as complicated or as simple as you want it: dictated by your own skills and the equipment you have available to you.

 

http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q672/JCC19961/WP_000114_zpsc0661489.jpg

 

If you get back to us with more specific questions and details we can help you further if you need it.

 

Joe

[dedwards96]

That's all that I needed thanks. Just what comes from where on the mixer is all I was unsure about.

 

Just another general sound question... Is it advisable to send speaker level signal along a snake (multicore). Ive heard some people say that you can and others say you can't.

 

Thanks :D

[the kid]

One thing that is great is to download a soundcraft or now prosonus manual. Any manual, they have a "how to set up for ..." in both and are very simple to translate to another desk. Hell if you have a soundcraft even easier but they do explain it all with simple pics like above.

[JCC1996]

I've never had to send speaker level down a line level multi, but I'd be inclined to believe it was a bad idea! I find the behringer website also has some nice example setup diagrams.

[dedwards96]

Great - thought so!

 

Thanks for the help.

[the kid]

I've never had to send speaker level down a line level multi, but I'd be inclined to believe it was a bad idea! I find the behringer website also has some nice example setup diagrams.

 

 

Actually I think MOST of the names do have such things to appeal to the "amateur and church market"

[ojc123]

Just another general sound question... Is it advisable to send speaker level signal along a snake (multicore). Ive heard some people say that you can and others say you can't.

 

Thanks :D

 

I'd say not advisable. The multicore cable isn't made for the kind of current involved with speaker outputs.

 

You could move the amp to the end of the multicore nearest the speakers and send an output from the mixer to the amp input. There are usually some returns on the multicore. They'll have trailing XLR sockets on the mixer end and XLR plugs on the stagebox end. That's the opposite to the sends which you plug microphones into.

 

Others who know more than me will be better able to tell you the technical details.

[p.k.roberts]

Hi Dan,

 

Could I recommend a very useful little book which will give you a good overview of live sound set-ups, answer the question in your other thread (about ohms) and will probably help you out with questions you haven't even thought of yet...

 

http://www.amazon.co...15&sr=1-3-spell

 

A bargain for under a fiver!

 

Good luck

 

PKR

 

http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/1860742718.01.MZZZZZZZ.jpg

[dedwards96]

Hi Dan,

 

Could I recommend a very useful little book which will give you a good overview of live sound set-ups, answer the question in your other thread (about ohms) and will probably help you out with questions you haven't even thought of yet...

 

http://www.amazon.co...15&sr=1-3-spell

 

A bargain for under a fiver!

 

Good luck

 

PKR

 

Excellent - I've just ordered a copy! Thanks.

[paulears]

If you are putting on a musical - then the sound will be a crucial part of the production, and possibly cost lots of extra dosh to do properly. I'd strongly suggest talking to your teacher and technician (even if he's not keen) so that the advice you get reflects what is actually possible with your kit. We can give loads of advice, but without the info your teachers and other staff have, much will be pointless. It seems for some reason you wish to do everything yourself. You're trying to design and connect a system, while at the same time trying to get to grips with the physics (see your "what are Ohms" topic).

 

The science department know about physics, the drama people know about the show. Possibly your technical requirements are not understood by the staff, BUT they must be involved in the process, even if you do the work. Leaving you to do it and possibly mess it up means BLAME will be flying around, and you don't want to have it land on you! This happens all the time. A willing student says they will sort it - but has no help or guidance because the staff don't realise how complicated it actually is. When it goes wrong, the staff will dump the blame on you. It happens all the time when they've spent two grand hiring and buying equipment you told them they needed, but it becomes more complicated than you can cope with. With responsibility comes little praise or thanks but lots of repercussions. I've seen it dozens of times, and it usually starts like this. You don't want internet help, you need real practical help. It sounds nice if they give you the title of Sound Designer in the program - but sometimes it's more healthy to be a sound assistant, and have the teacher's name as sound designer when the brown stuff flies!

 

DI'd keyboards, radio mics, two PA speakers, and two separate monitors (one for cast, one for band).

This is a good example - some elements are quite straight forward, others - like radio mics are a complete subject in themselves. Even monitors, which sound simple, are common trouble spots. What exactly do the cast expect from the monitors? If you stick voices, via the radio microphones into monitors it's usually far too risky for a novice to control - very rarely is this going to be set a fader and forget. Same with the band. Depending on where they are going to be, what are the monitors for? Hearing themselves? Hearing the cast? We don't know. If it's going to be in a school hall, with all the usual compromises, then the only common requirement, monitoring wise, could simply be the need for the cast to hear the music. Forget hearing themselves - they have to suck it up, and sing out. The individual members of the band just need to be able to hear the things they need to hear - and the MD will explain what that is if they're good, but if they're not really an MD, just a music teacher - they may have no clue. If it's a modern musical, then the bass player needs to hear drums and the most important source - probably the MDs keys. The drummer needs similar. If you have brass, guitars and other stuff, they probably want to hear the MD keys. If they can, they can play. The rhythm section is the only group who must hear each other to play properly. In most cases, the band will then be loud enough to not need putting in monitors, because if you do that, then radio mics will become a nightmare.

 

Your biggest problem will be cast discipline. If they sinbg and speak consistently then your mixing job is easier.If they are random in their output, there's little a newbie sound op can do. Feedback will be a constant nightmare. Faders cannot be set and forgotten - you will need a script and lots of practice. You won't ever get enough practice, so you must be proactive and predict ahead what is about to happen - not reactive, dropping a fader stopping feedback when it happens is NOT sucess - it's reaction. Your teachers may make decisions for you. Instructing the cast to turn on and off their mic packs is incredibly common. If they do this - they will get it wrong, and you, in charge of the sound, will have no control at all, and will be blamed constantly. In controlled productions, actors are never allowed to do this - it's the sound ops job!

 

On your own, you have no hope - so you need real help and guidance. Perhaps even show your teacher this topic so they can see how worried we are for you. Don't expect your staff to know much about any of this - it is rarely covered in their training, which always treats technology as somebody elses area of expertise! Drama teachers don't do switches. Music teachers don't do shows, and physics teachers don't do art subjects!

[ojc123]

As usual Mr Ears speaks wise words. I absolutely agree with every word. A musical with radio mics, an amplified band and monitors is not a good starting point for learning to do this stuff.

[paulears]

Thinking back, I remember it taking quite a few shows to find my own 'best' way to mark scripts up, and cheerfully admit that with just 6 radio mics, I managed to leave them up, forget to put them up, and completely lose track of which 5 actors were on stage when I could clearly see 6 faders up, and be holding my breath I found the one who'd exited before they swore! Nowadays, people start with so much complicated kit, and no experience at all - and it's scary.

 

This year in panto, I covered for the Director, the LD, one of the band - and I went and read through the sound ops script, just in case, and came to the conclusion that I didn't want to cover for him, based on his script notes. Fader notes, mute group notes, track timing notes, standby notes for skipping tracks on Qlab if certain things happened.

 

Scary stuff, frankly!

[Just Some Bloke]

Paul's advice is excellent, of course, but I hope I may be permitted to add some more.

 

My first point is a question: why are you DIing the keyboards when you don't mention amplifying the rest of the band? Is it, perhaps, "because you can"? I only ask because I have heard shows where the band have done a lovely job of balancing themselves in the pit perfectly but the sound op has DId the keys (because it's easy) and put them through the PA and now the balance is wrong - too much keyboards. Having said that I have many times mixed a show whereby I've DId the keys, not put them through the PA, but put them through the onstage monitors so the cast can stay in tune. As long as you know why you're doing everything you're doing then there isn't a problem.

 

My second is to agree that this job is a lot harder than it sounds so if you can get it that all you're doing is mixing the radio mics (band look after themselves, someone else fires off the sound efffects etc.) then it will make things a lot easier. Mark up your script scrupulously in advance (you'll undoubtedly have to change it at Tech but that's OK!) with +3 when mic 3 comes on stage, -5 when mic 5 leaves etc. and LISTEN very carefully to get the right levels, and remember you can't mix with the mutes - it's a contradiction in terms: if you leave the faders all at 0 and just turn a mute off when someone comes on stage then mute it again when they leave you're not mixing sound. Use the faders under the control of your ears.

 

Hope that helps,

 

Eric (JSB)

[azlan]

When I used to mix our school productions (last one was about 3 years ago) we never has as many radio's as we had principle cast that wanted them, which meant that we would have to swap packs, adjust gains on the fly etc.. If this is the case, make sure you sit down with the stage hand who is doing the pack changes and come up with a list of who has which mic scene by scene, and make sure that the list is stuck too, I will always remember the night where my stage hand swapped the wrong packs over, ended up having one part of a duet not mic'ed at all (luckily she was loud, so the overheads picked her up reasonably anyway), and someone backstage with the pack she was meant to have, walking round the dressing room talking to random people coming out over the PA for a couple of seconds.

 

and we would never have dreamed of trying to mic the band up, it was enough of a challenge to pick the chorus up with the overheads and project them to the back of the (very wide but not massively deep) hall, without the added volume of a band going through the speakers too!

 

Something else to think about with the on-stage monitoring is, are the cast actually used to hearing the full band, or will the full arrangements actually put them off, I know that for one of the musicals I mixed at uni, we ended up just putting the keys through the monitors, as with the whole band going through, the actors struggled to keep time/pitch more than without them.

 

The original post sound like you are talking about hiring in kit (just my reading of it, I could be wrong), if you are, then it is probably worth finding a couple of local audio companies, and talking to them about the requirements of the show, and see what they suggest doing, and if you want to get to grips with a basic audio set up, talk to your local am-dram group or youth center (if they do gigs there, I know a few of the YMCA youth clubs round here put gigs on, and I'm sure many others do too) and see if you could shadow their sound person for a couple of nights to get your head around the basics.

 

Hope that helps

 

Azlan