EV & Dynacord Sound Quality

[warrenstuart]

Hi, I have a question related to something I experienced at the weekend...

 

I run a small mobile disco with the sound system comprising 2 x EV ZX4 speakers, QSC PLX 3002 amplifier, Denon 400 mixer, Numark CDN 22 CD player and/or Cortex HDC 1000 media player. Now the sound is ok, I'm relatively happy with it etc, however on Sat night there was a singer in the other room at the venue I was working at so I went in just to be nosey whilst the food was on in my function, he was using EV ZX5's and a Powermate 1000 mk1... it sounded bloody amazing! I looked for the subwoofer and couldn't see one and he confirmed later that he wasn't using one but the lows were superb and it was so crisp and clear at the same time. He had a small "smiley face" curve on the graphic EQ section of the mixer but nothing steep at either end at all. So why doesn't my system sound that good??

Now I have run ZX5 speakers as a test and even done one disco with a ZX4 one side and a ZX5 on the other side as when I first had the ZX4s one failed after about 2 weeks so I had a ZX5 on loan for a few days and there really isn't much in it between the two boxes, the 5 is a heavier and a bit more "vocal" due to the 2" horn I guess but the really high "tingly bits" are more prominent from the 4.

 

So all I can think is that there is something special about the Powermate 1000?? Your thoughts and comments please folks before I sell my amp and mixer and go out and buy a Powermate ** laughs out loud ** !!

 

Warren.

[Doug Siddons]

There are so many variables in this situation however I would look at the quality of what your playing through your system compared to the singers to begin with. Beg steal or borrow one of his tracks to see if there is a marked difference. After that play with the gain structure and EQ on your Denon, Oh and do the test in the same room as you heard the other system just to make sure.

 

(This also assumes that no magic smoke has escaped from your system).

[MarkPAman]

What was his volume like compared to yours?

 

If he's running largely uncompressed signals through a system with lots of headroom, and you're running compressed mixes close to the limits of yours, that will make a big difference.

[warrenstuart]

Thanks for the replies so far :)

 

Doug, I'm playing a mixture of original CDs on the Numark and a mixture of wav & 320k mp3s files on the Cortex (the wavs do have more depth to them but you can't tag them comprehensively which is a bummer or I would use all wavs). He was playing mini-disc using a pair of domestic min-disc players one on top of the other, typical self contained singer setup, for those who haven't migrated to a laptop yet anyway!

I've played in the room he was in several times and put my speakers in much the same place as he had his.

 

Mark, his volume was loud but clean and when I was being nosey he was peaking between -3 & 0db on the meter.

 

Warren.

[GR1]

I don't think the Dynacord contributed greatly to any difference in sound balance. The QSC is a very good amplifier. Minidiscs often tend to enhance the bass by the way their codec converts to digital. The fact that you are using mp3s doesn't help. Any differences will be mostly source and partly speakers. I think the different amps will make a minimal difference. The only way to test with any certainty will be an AB test swapping out sources, speakers and amps because that will also eliminate you as a variable - anything else is really only a guess.

[laolu]

I first suspected the MP3s but since you're also playing original CDs, that argument is gone.

I don't know the Cortex at all.

Maybe try an EQ between your mixer and amp, it might help. Put on the "smiley face", first on the EQ, then on yourself. :)

 

That's all I could think of right now.

 

Norbert

[warrenstuart]

I first suspected the MP3s but since you're also playing original CDs, that argument is gone.

I don't know the Cortex at all.

Maybe try an EQ between your mixer and amp, it might help. Put on the "smiley face", first on the EQ, then on yourself. :)

 

That's all I could think of right now.

 

Norbert

Thanks Norbert, sadly I've already tried that :(

The only real test here I think is to try my speakers, CD player & media player through a Powermate 1000 but that is easier said than done.

I'm not really that familier with the Powermate other than what I've read online so I'm wondering if they've just got a really good dynamic range and/or built in processing that does the trick!? I do know that even the mk1's seem to hold their money on e-bay though.

 

Warren.

[smalljoshua]

The QSC is a good Amplifier, there's a very good chance that the problem isn't there.

 

How have you got the system setup? Are you running any part of the mixer into the red? The Numark aren't renowned for their quality but it shouldn't make that much of a difference!

 

Where abouts in the country are you? Perhaps a local Blue-Roomer could come and have a look in exchange for a pint at your next gig.

 

Josh

[warrenstuart]

Well I've learn't today from a Dynacord dealer that I called in to whilst out on my travels that the Powermate 1000 mk1 was quite bass heavy so this may explain where the lovely bottom end was coming from on Sat night.

As an aside the Powermate 600 mk3 looked like a nice small, lightweight but powerful little machine... I can see this could end up being expensive

 

The QSC is a good Amplifier, there's a very good chance that the problem isn't there.

 

How have you got the system setup? Are you running any part of the mixer into the red? The Numark aren't renowned for their quality but it shouldn't make that much of a difference!

 

Where abouts in the country are you? Perhaps a local Blue-Roomer could come and have a look in exchange for a pint at your next gig.

 

Josh

 

Hi Josh, I'm not far from Birmingham and system set up is amp always turned up full (I don't see the point of putting a kink in the hosepipe, so to speak), mixer channel faders at about 3/4 to 7/8 of their full travel when at normal playing volume at an "average" gig and master up about 1/4. This I find gives a fairly good relationship between the amp meter and mixer O/P meter in that -10db indicated on the mixer also shows -10db on the amp etc. It's very rare I hit the red except for the odd peak in a big room. Amp always runs with clip limiter on and 30hz hi-pass filter in.

Channel EQ is normally flat (12 o'clock) for hi & mid and between 2 & 3 o'clock for low... obviously this does vary a little from time to time, room and track dependant.

 

Warren.

[S&L]

Just a thought as a small part of the puzzle -

a stunning number of modern CD's are highly compressed - it's not just the CD format, it's the source material. If you put most chart stuff against some of the 70's stuff you will be amazed by the 'open' uncompressed sound of older recordings. it's even creeping into new CD's of old stuff. I run an old recording of Hall and Oats 'She's Gone' through my PA to test every gig because (1) I know it well (2) it has a big open sound, much less compression which is how I mix the bands I work with (3) it has high hats for the highs, bass for the lows, male vocals for the mids.

I guess the point I am making is that original engineering of the source recording can be a small but important part of the picture. when the bands I mix finish sound checking and I put a CD on it's like listening to two separate systems the change is so marked - which for my purposes is fine.

[warrenstuart]

Resurrecting this old topic of mine because over the last couple of weeks I've confirmed my suspicions all along... the great sound I speak of in my first post is as a result of the amplifier in the Powermate series.

 

I've picked up an MP7 (Powermate 600 with slightly different mixer) on a spares or repair listing, I've repaired it and taken it out with me for testing and it's great. I took it to a small function of 60 people with my SX300s 2 weeks ago and it gave me the sound quality I've been looking for. I couldn't believe how "full" the sound was from the SX300s that IMO have been relatively flat until now if not used with a subwoofer. At this point I thought this has to be the signal processing within the mixer section of the MP7 so this put me on a mission to prove the point.

 

This weekend I set out to my gig really early armed with equipment and leads to do some testing and here's what I found: -

 

All tests made using a Cortex HDC-1000 player & 320k mp3 tracks, Denon mixer, EV ZX4 speakers and then the following (with the exception of test no4): -

 

1. QSC PLX3002 amplifier

I use this amplifier use more than anything, my usual nice sound, powerful enough and lightweight.

 

2. EV CP2200 amplifier

This is my spare amplifier and I couldn't tell any difference in sound quality between this and the QSC amplifier, it's just very heavy so that's why it's the spare!

 

3. MP7 amplifier direct

Plugged into the power amp direct sockets on the MP7 and it was like someone had pushed the "loudness button" on the low frequencies.

The midrange clarity and the high frequency components were just as they always are but the sound had got that fullness and depth to it that I always hear when I work with self contained singers/small groups that seem to run Dynacord Powermate 600/1000 series mixer and either EV SX300s or EV ZX5s as a bit of an industry standard.

 

4. From what I discovered in test 3 above I changed direction and plugged my Cortex player into one of the line inputs on the MP7 mixer but used my EV CP2200 amplifier instead of the internal MP7 amplifier thus substituting the Denon mixer, same ZX4 speakers and that depth and fullness to the sound had gone.

 

So in conclusion the only thing that has changed in the chain of components is the amplifier and like turning on a switch there's the sound quality I've heard so many times and thought to myself "why doesn't mine sound like that?"

 

It's a shame the amplifier isn't a bit more powerful in this MP7 or I would be running it all of the time now. It has given me serious thought about getting the new Powermate 600-3 that is lightweight and has a bigger amplifier though :)

 

On a final note does anyone know if the amplifier used in the Powermate 1000 (mk1 or 2) is used in any of the Dynacord stand-alone amplifiers?

 

Warren.

[KevinE]

Powermate 1 and 2 amp boards are essentially an EV Q66 with a few extra bits in the PSU section...just compare the diagams.

 

The mixer section of the powermates (all types) have a built-in bass lift when it's eq'ed flat. It's not the amp section per se, this will be what you have heard. It would be interesting to run one on smaart to have a look at exactly where it acts.

 

Watch you dont damage your drivers with all that extra sub-bass!

[warrenstuart]

Powermate 1 and 2 amp boards are essentially an EV Q66 with a few extra bits in the PSU section...just compare the diagams.

 

The mixer section of the powermates (all types) have a built-in bass lift when it's eq'ed flat. It's not the amp section per se, this will be what you have heard. It would be interesting to run one on smaart to have a look at exactly where it acts.

 

Watch you dont damage your drivers with all that extra sub-bass!

 

 

Hi Kevin, I've downloaded an MP7 service manual (shame it's all in German!) and I'm guessing the bass lift you are talking about is shown in the pic below and if so it's quite substantial...

 

http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z474/warrenstuart/MP7SpeakerOut_zpsdcf45ef8.jpg

 

I didn't however hear this bass lift when I ran out of the MP7 mixer into an external amplifier so it seems that this happens within the amp processor section itself shown below.

You can see that when I used the MP7 as just a power amplifier the mixer is bypassed at the switched TRS sockets, unless of course there is more filtering that occurs between these sockets and the power amplifier that isn't shown on the block diagram?

 

http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z474/warrenstuart/MP7Amp_zps4a791d81.jpg

 

The processor must incorporate limiting and compression I guess because this bass boost I can't achieve with my normal setup incorporating a graphic equaliser as it just drives the speakers too hard without getting the desired effect.

 

Thanks for your reply, it's interesting to discover that when you think its flat it's not REALLY flat then is it?! I'm hooked on the way it does sound though :)

 

Apologies for getting into geek mode with this but I find it all fascinating and eager to learn

 

Warren.

[paulears]

My band sometimes use supplied Pas, and we had one a while back that sounded rather nice, and I was impressed. Yet a couple of weeks ago we heard a DJ using exactly the same system and it sounded horrible, and I wonder if it's a combination of the source material, with often very compressed waveforms, coupled to a system working hard to get lots of level from compact speakers. Solo singers with karaoke style tracks don't use commercial squashed recordings, do they - so maybe the reason these systems sound bad is just what they are playing?

[warrenstuart]

Yes that's very true and if the source material is poor then it will all be poor.

I did wonder this for a while if it was the material that artists were playing compared with what I'm playing back distorting my comparason but that's not the case at the end of the day.

 

I use quite a few wav files and I think you can tell the difference in the lower frequencies and "depth" a track has to it when playing back wav vs 320k mp3.