a question of size

[S&L]

So for the last few years working in clubs and bars with pop and rock bands, I have been asking musician's to turn up with smaller gear, leave the 4 x 12's at home please. in fairness everyone I work with regularly plays these places with nothing bigger than a vox ac30. But what happens when you get a gig on a MUCH bigger stage? later next year I will be going into a venue where instead of one or two hundred capacity the capacity is 10 times that, so essential stats are as follows:

the band: pop, rock covers, drums, vocals, keys, guitar and bass.

present back line set up:

guitarist - two roland cubes

bass player - 1 x 15" combo

keyboard players guitar amp - vox pathfinder 15

guitars are mic'ed, bass is DI'ed, keys DI'ed to desk without amp

present monitoring:

lead singer IEM

guitarist singer - 12" wedge

bass player singer - 12" wedge

drummer - 12" wedge

keyboard player - 10" wedge

this set up works for this pop rock band (saturday night bars and functions - everything goes through the PA and while the PA size may change between a 100 and 250 capacity venue the backline stays the same and the stage sound works. BUT the stage is never more than 20ft wide and often less than 12ft wide.

 

the venue I am concerned about:

stage open on 3 sides. 60ft wide x 20ft deep

capacity would usually be 2,000 but this is a dinner/ball so likely capacity 500

intended monitoring 15" wedge for all and IEM for lead singer (with shotgun mic for crowd noise to IEM)

 

FOH PA yet to be confirmed - either a small line array system (never done one of those yet) or 8 no. 15/18" subs and 4 no. 12" tops per side (approx.)

 

My concern?

the PA is a worry for another day - but I'm pondering back line advice for the band. my concern is the projection of instruments across the stage but I'm not sure if I am over thinking it and that just adding a bit more through the monitors would probably be better than bringing larger guitar and bass rigs.

thoughts and comments please?

[DrummerJonny]

I'd say stick with what you're doing. As long as each member has their own monitor mix, just give them what they want to hear through the wedges. The quieter you can keep the stage the better, and using smaller backline also provides you with more control over the sound FOH.

 

If your guitarist has a stack of 4x12's running full whack behind him, the vocals, keys etc are going to need to be louder in his wedge so he can hear over the top of his own rig. This will lead to an extremely loud stage, and no end of feedback issues.

[paulears]

concur 100%. Let the PA deal with the louder requirement, and let the band carry on as before!

[Doug Siddons]

+1 to what Jonny says and just turn up the monitors. I would also add that you don't mention how many sends you have but the more the merrier and think about putting side fills in as well

[S&L]

I'd say stick with what you're doing. As long as each member has their own monitor mix, just give them what they want to hear through the wedges. The quieter you can keep the stage the better, and using smaller backline also provides you with more control over the sound FOH.

 

If your guitarist has a stack of 4x12's running full whack behind him, the vocals, keys etc are going to need to be louder in his wedge so he can hear over the top of his own rig. This will lead to an extremely loud stage, and no end of feedback issues.

 

even on a stage the size of the Apollo? I would usually apply exactly your advice in a bar but do have concerns about the stage here...

I should also explain the place is an indoor amphitheatre in layout

maybe I am wrong footed by my childhood experience..I got used to seeing famous bands playing there with walls of marshall's!

[MarkPAman]

Yep, you'll be fine with that backline, as long as the monitors are good. Extras to add if possible would be a monitor desk (+ operator) and sidefills, in that order.

 

I got used to seeing famous bands playing there with walls of marshall's!

 

Ah, but how many were plugged in? Or even real? ;)

[Doug Siddons]

In the sventies when we saw famous bands with walls of Marshalls and you were standing infront of the stage all you could hear was the guitarist infront of you!. Then due to lack of monitors they would use two 4x12's one on either side of the stage so each guitarist could hear the other!

[S&L]

Yep, you'll be fine with that backline, as long as the monitors are good. Extras to add if possible would be a monitor desk (+ operator) and sidefills, in that order.

 

I got used to seeing famous bands playing there with walls of marshall's!

 

Ah, but how many were plugged in? Or even real? ;)

 

** laughs out loud ** fair point!

I would like a monitor desk and FOH desk ..and someone else to run the monitor desk - but I think this is probably a request too far at the moment.

the side fills are exactly the sort of comment I was hoping for! a good point.

there are a couple of Paul Weller songs in the set so here is weller playing the venue - I have noted the side wedges presumably as side fill - there is much more depth to the stage but Weller's keysboard player and drummer seem to take up a ridiculous amount of room!

[kerry davies]

Is it because of the bigger stage and possible movement that you are thinking of bigger, louder, noisier monitors?

 

If so I would stick with the foldback and backline that the band is happy using and possibly add one or two monitors. Pushing power and noise levels up onstage will change the band dynamic resulting in more trouble than it is worth. To start changing things for a one-off is simply adding unknowns to a working equation.

 

As for FOH I would find out what sort of PA the venue regularly uses and is happy with. Reinventing that wheel is also an unnecessary risk.

[S&L]

Is it because of the bigger stage and possible movement that you are thinking of bigger, louder, noisier monitors?

 

If so I would stick with the foldback and backline that the band is happy using and possibly add one or two monitors. Pushing power and noise levels up onstage will change the band dynamic resulting in more trouble than it is worth. To start changing things for a one-off is simply adding unknowns to a working equation.

 

As for FOH I would find out what sort of PA the venue regularly uses and is happy with. Reinventing that wheel is also an unnecessary risk.

 

because the stage is bigger..yes - this band aren't big on movement (we are all getting too old to career across the stage and slide on our knees....besides that just doesn't work for 'broken stones')

but I'm thinking the bass may not carry to the guitarist on the other side of the stage and the guitarists amps are tiny and too directional for a 60ft wide stage

side fill plus a monitor each may be the ideal answer for this tho.

 

don't change things for a one off...makes sense to me. I was thinking of just the following alerations to what we would usually do:

full drum mics rather than just bass drum and snare.

shotgun mic for IEM

 

regarding sends, I will be bringing a desk I for the occasion so hopefully finding sends shouldn't be a problem

[jamesperrett]

 

but I'm thinking the bass may not carry to the guitarist on the other side of the stage and the guitarists amps are tiny and too directional for a 60ft wide stage

 

 

On a big stage the amps are only there to provide a sound for the PA microphone to pick up - and to possibly allow the guitarist to hear themselves. Monitors for everyone are essential, not only so that they can hear other people but also so that they can hear themselves. A decent experienced monitor engineer is also essential - they'll make a massive difference to the band's enjoyment of the gig. Don't try and scrimp and save on this - if you're not experienced at running monitors for a stage of this size then hire someone who is.

 

As a drummer, I've been on the receiving end of all kinds of monitor mixes on big stages and I know how much easier things become when the monitor mixer knows what they're doing.

 

James.

[S&L]

but I'm thinking the bass may not carry to the guitarist on the other side of the stage and the guitarists amps are tiny and too directional for a 60ft wide stage

 

 

On a big stage the amps are only there to provide a sound for the PA microphone to pick up - and to possibly allow the guitarist to hear themselves. Monitors for everyone are essential, not only so that they can hear other people but also so that they can hear themselves. A decent experienced monitor engineer is also essential - they'll make a massive difference to the band's enjoyment of the gig. Don't try and scrimp and save on this - if you're not experienced at running monitors for a stage of this size then hire someone who is.

 

As a drummer, I've been on the receiving end of all kinds of monitor mixes on big stages and I know how much easier things become when the monitor mixer knows what they're doing.

 

James.

 

point well taken James - I'm still trying to persuade the band leader of what is needed for this type of venue.

[chris4monitors]

As a monitor engineer for the past 30 years I will say that all the advice so far is good. Just because you are in a big venue or on a large stage dont change the bands dynamic.

The artist I work with plays stages worldwide from 500 cap club gigs to 90 000 cap festivals (usually at the top of the billing) Regardless of the difering stage and venues we allways set up the stage exactly the same, and run the monitors at almost identical levels.

[S&L]

As a monitor engineer for the past 30 years I will say that all the advice so far is good. Just because you are in a big venue or on a large stage dont change the bands dynamic.

The artist I work with plays stages worldwide from 500 cap club gigs to 90 000 cap festivals (usually at the top of the billing) Regardless of the difering stage and venues we allways set up the stage exactly the same, and run the monitors at almost identical levels.

 

thanks Chris - I really do appreciate the advice and that of all contributors - it's always difficult taking that next big step and I feel I have a much better grip now on at least one of my concerns for this particular show

[Stuart91]

One quick tip when moving up to a bigger venue: Keep the band reasonably close together. The natural thing to do is to spread everyone out across the stage, and make the most of all this space that you have. The drawback is that players will find it harder to lock onto the timing, and will be far more dependent on monitors than they would be otherwise.

 

I'm not suggesting you cram everyone together as if they are playing in the corner of a pub, but keep the spacing under control and you, the band, and the monitor mixer will have a far easier time of it and a better gig all round.