What to charge for warehouse days?

[Dj Dunc]

I know that I am small fry compared to the majority of other voices in this discussion, but I always seem to get odd looks when I say that I prefer being on warehouse prep than rigging a show, exactly for the points that Son of LX Dad makes in his second paragraph.

 

Unfortunately for myself, in my experience (mentioning no names), companies have wanted to pay me the bare minimum to work for them, which in one case was fine for a warehouse day, if you are very new and OK running on a low rate, but not for an 8+ hour day.

 

Does anyone have any particular figures for Day Rates for newer general freelancers? In the past I went out for £50 just to get my foot in the door and some experience, but when I was being sent out doing a full technicians job, and I asked for a rate commensurate with that, I did not get any more work. Now whilst I understand that it is partly down to my relative inexperience in the industry, where should I draw the line?

 

Is it understandable to have a lower day rate being a new entrant to the industry full time, or is a set rate a set rate? I would be quite interested in peoples thoughts as I am trying to find work in the industry that will at least pay the bills and I don't have a clue as to where to price myself.

 

Another question is are there many businesses within the industry that are too reliant on newer technicians due to the monetary saving they can make, at the expense of other factors?

 

 

Duncan

[gareth]

Plus, you could let the client pay a shelf stacker for your tour prep OR you could go in yourself and actually make sure the first leg goes in properly.

 

That just reinforces my point. You can pay an inexperienced box-pusher a stupidly low day rate to throw stuff into cases and put them onto the wagon without really comprehending what's going to be happening to it all on site ... or you can pay a proper daily rate and get someone with enough experience and know-how to make sure that the job is prepped properly, reading between the lines on the kit list to ensure that nothing's been unintentionally missed off, and with everything packed in a way which will make sense when the boxes come off at the other end. Pay peanuts, get monkeys.

[indyld]

Plus, you could let the client pay a shelf stacker for your tour prep OR you could go in yourself and actually make sure the first leg goes in properly.

 

That just reinforces my point. You can pay an inexperienced box-pusher a stupidly low day rate to throw stuff into cases and put them onto the wagon without really comprehending what's going to be happening to it all on site ... or you can pay a proper daily rate and get someone with enough experience and know-how to make sure that the job is prepped properly, reading between the lines on the kit list to ensure that nothing's been unintentionally missed off, and with everything packed in a way which will make sense when the boxes come off at the other end. Pay peanuts, get monkeys.

 

But the opposing point is that there are companies that will choose the cheaper option, caring little about how much of a PITA the site guys have to deal with. In that case, you can either go in yourself and oversee the prep or you can put up with the pile of poo that turns up on site.

 

Actually any amount of prep is a cost to the company and in order to make quotes competitive, they don't appear to charge them through to the client directly on a show by show basis. That and using good freelancers onsite means little incentive to get a good prep out because ultimately, the guys on site will whine but get the gig on whatever. However, if as a site freelancer you are on the receiving end of the prep, you have the incentive to make sure you don't get screwed over. I don't think anyone is saying that it's the ideal, it's just a market.

 

In the years that I've been freelancing, there have always been two camps: The Day Rate / Going Rate camp and the It's A Market camp. One thinks the other is wrong and twas ever thus. They co-exist in their different worlds, sometimes working on the same gigs even. The point that employers make here about "inflexible" service providers is countered by the "I'm a top lampie, pay up or naff off!" brigade and the service providers slope off to the other "top lampie" that is £20 a day cheaper. I'd like to point out the neither path is either guaranteed the way to success or failure - I can think of a specific conversation with a "flexible rate / market" guys years ago who is now at the top of the UK game and doing very well on the most prestigious gigs. I'm sure he's not worrying about the poor, dispossessed freelancers who complain he wrecked their day rate cartel in 1990-something. There isn't such a thing as a "going rate" apart from what the market produces. But anyway...

 

My point is simply about the motivational factors involved in those decisions and that includes the motivation to make your life better on site. It's a bit like patching the desk before you turn up. Do you always get paid to patch the desk or create a show file ready for the off? Nope. But you do it because it's one less thing to worry about when the boxes start flying out of the truck. Companies know of this motivational factor too and use it to their advantage.

[Original Beef]

Thanks for all your replies. One thing I have learned from this forum therefore is that there is no hard and fast rule to prep days, and I am quite happy to carry on charging my day rate less £30. As most of you say they are usually no more than 8 hours, and lets face it in this industry that is a short day. The other thing to note is that the company I do this for use me as their no'1 noise boy so I get the first call for work, therefore I want to keep them happy by doing warehouse days at a slightly reduced rate.

[RichM]

For me, a days work is a days work, wherever/whatever it is. However, my day rate varies depending partly on the company I'm working for and partly on whether it's a corporate or rock and roll show.

 

The only time I do a "half day" rate is for travel days, with this being on the understanding that it is just that, no rigging/work, just get in a crew bus and arrive at a hotel.

[ceecrb1]

As a company, we generally offer 20-30€ less in a warehouse day.

TBH if we call someone to the warehouse, its for a specific task, too much going on for us to handle, large trailer to load/unload... so we generally decide a price depending on the work needing done and estimated time needed to do it. Usually its preparing gear going out the next day, and we try to use the same crew to prep as the ones going on the job.. if anything they know where everything is packed during the rig.

 

We are also very aware that in a warehouse day, there is far less responsibilty than on site, mainly because we have a warehouse boss whos responsibility it is to check everything (and he does), you will also have your guaranteed lunch in the company bar, and the work will take as long as it takes you to do it, there is no deadline of public getting in at X oclock.

Mostly when we call people for warehouse duty, even if they are the best tech in the world, if they dont know where the things are, theyt arnt worth much... so the warehouse manager and I pick things and the other people end up doing final counts of staging legs or packing cables into cases and such the like... its not a mental strain for them by any means, so I dont see it as being worth the same as asking them to be responsible for a sound desk or some robotic lights etc..

[Leggy]

Things have changed since I last prepped a rig for a company if you can set your rate yourself. The company would tell you the rate, take it or leave it. It's only the top flight who would be earning anything like their normal day rate for a warehouse day.

[son of lx dad]

so the warehouse manager and I pick things and the other people end up doing final counts of staging legs or packing cables into cases and such the like... its not a mental strain for them by any means, so I dont see it as being worth the same as asking them to be responsible for a sound desk or some robotic lights etc..

 

and then it costs 3 times as much as that extra 30 Euros for a mess run van when something vital hasn't been packed because you left it to the unskilled labour who couldn't visualise the task in hand. Just today I saved a very large lighting company a very large bill and a wasted day on site (on a very large sporting event) by looking at a picking list and noticing the motor cable was of a different system from the motors and controller. If I had not done this a team of 40 people would have sat for a day tomorrow waiting for a van. The extra amount of cash to pay me in full has just been made up 20 fold on savings in man hours and vans. It simply makes economic sense.

[BlueShift]

I am totally with Smiffy and (for once) Gareth on this issue.

 

Plain fact is, a days work is a days work. I charge the same irrelevant of the location. Those of you who charge less are doing the entire industry a dis-service and need to stop doing so now. You are hurting every Self Employed Subcontactor everywhere.

 

I have to say I don't agree with that at all, but I think it depends somewhat on the individual and the type of work that you do.

For example, as an Audio Engineer, I sometimes mix FOH, I sometimes babysit FOH for another engineer, I sometimes take responsibility for putting up and tuning an arena size PA system, sometimes I work for a system tech as part of a larger crew. These are not the same, and are not worth the same amount of money. I'm not charging people for a days 'work', I'm charging people for a service provided. My rate for each job depends on a number of factors including how much responsibility is undertaken, amount of technical skill required, length of the days, etc..

 

And while I absolutely agree that our industry does unfortunately seem to suffer from people naively offering to work for next to nothing - not realising they are jeopardising their own career by driving industry rates down, you also have to understand the basic principles of business and a market driven economy.

 

Futhermore I find the above attitude of Mark_s quite insulting. I believe that it takes far more skill to prep a show than it does to install it. The fitup should be the easy part, if the prep is done fully and the paperwork is complete. The ability to visualise the tasks ahead, spot potential challenges and turn those into viable solutions at the warehouse stage of a gig is a skill lampies build up over many years and prevent costly mess runs and loss of time.

 

Believe me when I say, clients want me to prep because of my ability to present a complete system in a timely fashion - every time.

 

I see your point, but also I think that is a very lighting-centric mindset. In audio, as an example, most of the skill is required onsite, and that is where the majority of technical work takes place. So in my case, that is why often a warehouse day is cheaper than a show day, because there is legitimately less to be done. Although equally, that is often why I don't prep the gigs I work on, because a less skilled technician, who charges less per day, can complete the work to a high standard. But that is my business: I make more money out of system design than implementation. Your mileage may vary.