Reality check

[Light Console]

Well, after all of the recent posts on topics about Health and Safety, Electrical knowledge, Public Liability Insurance, and so on, I am reviewing the situation to coin a phrase.

As someone who thought he knew what he was doing, I begin to wonder if I really do. I am almost a qualified electrician, holding C&G 235 and 236 part 1. This was included with my Degree, (Lighting Design) studying one day a week at another college. We never even picked up a screwdriver. This didn't concern me, as I also hold an NVQ in Industrial Wiring, so had installed all types of trunking/switchgear/etc, but not looked at the regs. As a result, I got mostly distinctions in exams because I had a keen interest in the subject. But it never covered the in-depth parts of H&S. My reputation preceded me once in work, as having very neat cable running skills, but I would gaffer them to the floor thinking this was the safe way it was done.

I would class myself as a competent person, but always keen to learn more. I have been involved with over 300 shows, put to together countless amounts of cables, PAT tested over 50,000 items.

 

But am I a competent person? Just because I have done it before, doesn't mean I did it the right way the first time. I will be the first to say I don't know all of the health and safety relating to what I do day to day.

 

Over the summer, I am going to look long and hard at what has happened here, the countless links to other sites, as well. Then when I come back, I hope to know what I should and shouldn't be doing to be safe, whilst being practicle. I recently worked in a venue, that wouldn't let me climb their ladders. But they couldn't climb the ladders as they hadn't taken traing for it. I explaned that I had been up ladders a lot. I was only placing cables on hooks, no weight was being lifted up the ladder, ladders were in good condition etc. An hour later I was able to climb it, place the cable on three hooks, come down and the job was done. What a waste of time.

I want to take C&G 236 part 2 in the near furture, but will consider starting over, to make sure all of my electrical knoweldge is current.

 

Now it's over to you, what do you think?.....

[gaspipe58]

I know what you mean! I did the CGLI 181 and 236pt1. I'm now doing another CGLI course to become 'competent' to perform PA testing. Fine! I'm not paying for it and get paid overtime to do it. I am wondering what else I could be doing to protect myself from claims of incompetence.

 

Life is a risk but unfortunately our masters seem to want to ban all risk without thinking of the implications. How long will it be before all reasonable precautions become unreasonable? I think the process may have already started.

 

Tim

[Brian]

...I'm now doing another CGLI course to become 'competent' to perform PA testing. Fine! I'm not paying for it and get paid overtime to do it...

 

I would dispute that you can do a course to become competent.

 

Competence has generally been held to be a mix of education, training and experience. In the end the only people able to truly judge your competence will be a court.

[Light Console]

<snip> In the end the only people able to truly judge your competence will be a court.

 

That's what I am afraid of now! :o Not that I have done anything wrong yet! :)

[Brian]

I think that at times we all get a bit paranoid about H&S.

 

It's quite instructive to look around the HSE Prosecution Database to see what sorts of things people get 'done' for. In many cases the breach is so obvious that you can't help feeling that it was only right they were prosecuted. At the same time it also shows that the HSE are not interested in trivial breaches.

[gaspipe58]

...I'm now doing another CGLI course to become 'competent' to perform PA testing. Fine! I'm not paying for it and get paid overtime to do it...

 

I would dispute that you can do a course to become competent.

 

Which is why I put competent in ' '. A pretty bit of paper can be read out in court, however many years of experience can't. The court can be told about years of experience but it will not be able to see those years.

 

Competence has generally been held to be a mix of education, training and experience. In the end the only people able to truly judge your competence will be a court.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I doubt that a court would be the best place to test competence in anything except court practise. If you happen to be the worlds most experienced electrician defending yourself while the prosecution has the worlds best QC I think you may well loose, no matter how wrong that judgement may be.

 

As a further example I read in this mornings paper that a Council has moved the swings in a play ground as they were facing the Sun and the children may be struck blind. Imagine that mentality let loose in the LX dept! :)

 

Tim

[gaspipe58]

<Snip>

At the same time it also shows that the HSE are not interested in trivial breaches.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's very reassuring but in these days of private prosecution..... We see very stupid examples of bad law everywhere we go. To be honest I think we would all agree on the HSE side. The real problem is stupid people doing very silly things beyond all our ability to predict, getting themselves hurt then claiming we are liable because they were able to do something mindbogglingly dumb.

 

If we did succeed in chaining people down (with nice soft rubber chains so there's no injury) and prevented them hurting themselves we'd probably be accused of infringing their human rights to hurt themselves :)

 

Tim

[Brian]

If we did succeed in chaining people down (with nice soft rubber chains so there's no injury) and prevented them hurting themselves we'd probably be accused of infringing their human rights to hurt themselves :) 

 

Ah, but in the past masochists/sado-masochists have been prosecuted for inflicting pain even though none of them complained. :o

[Light Console]

Snip

As a further example I read in this mornings paper that a Council has moved the swings in a play ground as they were facing the Sun and the children may be struck blind. Imagine that mentality let loose in the LX dept! :o 

That has made my day :)

Ahem [science] the sun moves in the sky! Which ever whay the kid sits, the eyes may be in the sun, regardless of where the swing is facing [/science] However, it is good that they are thinking of things like this.

 

As to the later part, I have had to have a UV protection coating in my glasses (my parents are opticians) to protect me where I look into so many lights. I did burn a small patch of my retina so imagine the sight of an actor at the end of their career!

[DSA]

Snip

As a further example I read in this mornings paper that a Council has moved the swings in a play ground as they were facing the Sun and the children may be struck blind. Imagine that mentality let loose in the LX dept! :o 

That has made my day :)

Ahem [science] the sun moves in the sky! Which ever whay the kid sits, the eyes may be in the sun, regardless of where the swing is facing [/science] However, it is good that they are thinking of things like this.

Perhaps they were facing east/west and have been moved so they face north/south...

 

Would that not make things better?

 

David

[techsupport]

Well, after all of the recent posts on topics about Health and Safety, Electrical knowledge, Public Liability Insurance, and so on, I am reviewing the situation to coin a phrase.

 

edit by tech support , hope that is ok?

 

I would class myself as a competent person, but always keen to learn more. I have been involved with over 300 shows, put to together countless amounts of cables, PAT tested over 50,000 items.

 

But am I a competent person? Just because I have done it before, doesn't mean I did it the right way the first time. I will be the first to say I don't know all of the health and safety relating to what I do day to day.

 

Over the summer, I am going to look long and hard at what has happened here, the countless links to other sites, as well. Then when I come back, I hope to know what I should and shouldn't be doing to be safe, whilst being practicle. I recently worked in a venue, that wouldn't let me climb their ladders. But they couldn't climb the ladders as they hadn't taken traing for it. I explaned that I had been up ladders a lot. I was only placing cables on hooks, no weight was being lifted up the ladder, ladders were in good condition etc. An hour later I was able to climb it, place the cable on three hooks, come down and the job was done. What a waste of time.

I want to take C&G 236 part 2 in the near furture, but will consider starting over, to make sure all of my electrical knoweldge is current.

 

Now it's over to you, what do you think?.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hey Light Console, thanks for your welcome the other day.

 

Do not be worried or confused you obviously know what you are about, from the above.

 

Overall most of this HSE stuff is simple common sense.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Example:

 

Guy calls up Regional Electricty Authority to obtain license for generating a supply in pararell with main studio supply. Before he is asked "have you done this before" he says "have not done this before" but feels confident that with the right help not to complicated a thing to do.

 

Now guy knows he can do it but feels good idea to tell LEA that is 1st time.

 

LEA very pleased about guys start on project, and most helpful...

 

Result full co-operation from Regional Electricty Authority {yes full co-operation} pretty stunning huh!, through whole project.

 

So guy knows his limit and so do you.

 

Most important to know own limit, first step in Health and Safety.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Me, no qualifications but much touring experience

{the university of rock and roll},

I have undertaken and completed major capital projects outside "our industry"

 

No one ever asked me if I am qualified, they judge me competent for their project.

 

I would say to anyone who has the history similar to yours, they are competent in what they do.

 

They show Duty of Care and Due Diligence.

 

Cheers

tech support

[Just Some Bloke]

Snip

As a further example I read in this mornings paper that a Council has moved the swings in a play ground as they were facing the Sun and the children may be struck blind. Imagine that mentality let loose in the LX dept! :o 

That has made my day :D

Ahem [science] the sun moves in the sky! Which ever whay the kid sits, the eyes may be in the sun, regardless of where the swing is facing [/science]

 

 

Maybe they installed a revolve on a timer?

[gaspipe58]

<Snip>

Me, no qualifications but much touring experience 

{the university of rock and roll}, 

I have undertaken and completed major capital projects outside "our industry"

 

No one ever asked me if I am qualified, they judge me competent for their project.

 

I would say to anyone who has the history similar to yours, they are competent in what they do. 

 

They show Duty of Care and Due Diligence.

 

Cheers 

tech support

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'd agree with that although are those who judge competence competent to do so? :o Example - In another situation I was judged not competent (electrically) based on my qualifications and experience. The person who made this judgement then 'modified' the wiring in an installation to his own high standards. He managed to drag a length of flat T&E up a 20mm plastic conduit that already contained a few circuits in pvc singles. He then cut a slot in the conduit and drew out the T&E, running it along the wall to a light fitting. Not his only example of best practice but one of the better ones :D

 

Knowing your limits is a sign of competence in my view. Not the only sign but it goes a long way :P

 

Tim

[mikienorth]

Please tell me this post was meant as a joke to solicit a response such as mine.

Which is: WHAT? Somone said that was best practice? Even the worst know better than that. I'd be ashamed to admit to knowing someone who did that.

 

Unless they could explain thier reasoning within the context of BS7671 and make it make sense, of course.

 

Please gaspipe say that was posted in jest. Grouping, risk of insulation damage, exposure of conductors not doubly insulated, inappropiate opening of a cable management system?

[gaspipe58]

Please tell me this post was meant as a joke to solicit a response such as mine.

Which is:  WHAT?  Somone said that was best practice? Even the worst know better than that.  I'd be ashamed to admit to knowing someone who did that.

 

Unless they could explain thier reasoning within the context of BS7671 and make it make sense, of course.

 

Please gaspipe say that was posted in jest.  Grouping, risk of insulation damage, exposure of conductors not doubly insulated, inappropiate opening of a cable management system?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I jest not. This was done by the same guy that declared me not competent and yet seems to be under the impression that his own handiwork is just what is required. He took what was a nice (not that nice really) and safe installation and turned it into a death trap. You will be relieved to know it's not a theatre/entertainments installation.

 

Before being mutilated the installation was inspected and tested by a NICEIC approved contractor and passed fit, safe whatever. It included such gems as lighting circuits in T&E clipped to the wall because "only power circuits need mechanical protection". Parts of the ring mains in T&E run through conduit until they ran above 2m height. "Cables do not have to have mechanical protection if more that 2m off the ground".

 

Why was I judged incompetent? I disagreed with "only power circuits need mechanical protection". :D

 

I no longer have any association with that particular group. It was a church BTW 16C, of historical interest etc.

 

Tim

 

I also see some gems in schools......