Grouping Pit band inputs

[DanSteely]

Hello,

 

I am planning the sound for an amateur production that has alarge pit band along with 18 RF mics, other vocal mics as well as playback andeffects returns.. We have two desks we can use, one with 32 inputs and theother with 24 (+4 stereo). We couldscale back on inputs and squeeze onto the large desk but am considering theoption of using the two together.

 

The smaller desk has 8 group & L&R outputs + auxoutputs so could use this solely for the band and sub-mix the 24 mono inputsinto say 10 outputs. Foldback will be via headphones and this could also behanded by the ‘band’ desk..

 

So my question is how would you group the 24 (+4 St) inputsdown to 10? The un-finalised IP listlooks like this..

 

Kick

Snare

 

HH

Tom1

Tom2

Tom3

OH-L

OH-R

Timp-1

Timp-2

Perc-1

Perc-2

Perc-3

E Bass DI

Keys-1

Keys-2

Keys-3

E Guit (DI)

Flutes

Clarinets

Saxes

TBones

TPets

Reverb-1

Rev/Delay-2

 

The 32 input desk will be an LS9, the smaller one aSoundcraft K2. The venue is a 400 seat school hall and the show will me mixedfrom FOH..

 

Thanks

 

 

[DrummerJonny]

Personally, I'd go for something like this:

 

1 Kick

1 Snare

1 HH1

Tom1

1 Tom2

1 Tom3

1 OH-L

1 OH-R

2 Timp-1

2 Timp-2

2 Perc-1

2 Perc-2

2 Perc-3

3 E Bass DI

4 Keys-1

4 Keys-2

4 Keys-3

5 E Guit (DI)

6 Flutes

6 Clarinets

6/7 Saxes (can't decide, see notes below)

7 TBones

7 TPets

8 Reverb-1

9 Rev/Delay-2

It really depends on how they play together though. For example, Is the sax more widely used with the woodwind or the brass? The way I've done it, there's a spare channel anyway, so you could put it on its own. However, you may also like to keep the kick and snare separate from the rest of the kit, so you can increase the "backbeat" without bringing the cymbals up simultaneously. It really boils down to personal preference.

EDIT: Well that was a mess, fixed now I hope...

[Matt Riley]

Part of me wouldn't - I'd do it like they do the big orchestral events, and have one desk set up for the band (the K2) and one set up for the wireless mics, with the LR from the Soundcraft feeding into the LS9. However if forced to split it up I would probably run 1: Drums, 2: Percussion, 3: Keys/LX, 4: Woodwind, 5: Brass, 6: Returns/ Reverbs, and I wouldn't be afraid to do most of the (band) mixing off the K2.

[paulears]

I'm frankly amazed by the mic count for a small capacity auditorium. What kind of volume are you trying for - ears bleeding?

 

It's a pit band, and unless they're playing in a separate enclosed space, you are going to have big problems with isolation. You have some extremely loud instruments next to quieter ones - so rock dn roll treatment of the drums might simply be inappropriate for the style of the music. Do you really need 2 overheads and all three toms miked? 10 miss on percussion. Do the timps need two mics? If percussion includes tambourines, bell trees, glocks and zylos then they'll need help. Flutes and clarinets the same. Trumpets and trombones in the plural?? They're likely to need an anti-microphone, they'll blast into every open mic you have.

 

If you were recording the band, then I can see where you are going, but in a small space your orchestra is going to be VERY loud, and if you need to get the cast over the top of them, the worst thing you can do is make them louder.

 

You need to look at the score, work out what actually needs lifting in level to match the rest - then consider if the 'whole' needs miking up. Frankly, I doubt it. You'll have a major job attempting to get average level voices over the top of what is a very big sound acoustically.

 

What is the show?

[DrummerJonny]

They're likely to need an anti-microphone,

 

That made me laugh hard.

 

Adding to my previous post, as I was thinking "this is a lot of channels" and I glossed over the school hall bit. The above 2 make some very good points. This can almost certainly be scaled down with some thought.

 

 

 

[GridGirl]

We don't mic that heavily for a full orchestra concert on an outdoor stage...how many timpani is your player using? We might use two mics if it's four timpani, but if it's less than four then two mics would seem excessive. In a musical theatre setting you may also find that your reed players are doubling instruments as well, so planning for flute mics, clarinet mics and sax mics may not work - but that does depend on the show, some are more traditional in their orchestration

(but given the lack of strings on that list, I'm guessing not in this case). I agree with Paul - it seems very over-mic'ed.

[Bobbsy]

Agreed with the above comments.

 

Our local theatre is a fairly long, narrow 1800 seater (with one balcony starting about 2/3 of the way back) and a proper pit. We never close mic everything (at least not in my memory), generally using just a few area mics on sections and something for any big solos. We tend to spend more time putting in baffles and screens to control what sound goes where (and tone down the usual culprits) than we do amplifying everything.

[DanSteely]

As I saidoriginally, I’m exploring the possibility of using two desks and realise theinput list in the original post was ott…The original though was to squeezeeverything into to the LS9 by using 12 or less channels for the band.. Theinput list looking something like:

 

1 Kick

 

2 Snare (poss bottom)

 

3 Overhead

 

4 Percussion ambient

 

5 Bass

 

6 Guitar

 

7 Keys-1

 

8 Keys-2

 

9 Keys-3

 

10 Horns Ambient (Flutes & Cello)

 

11 Horns Ambient (Saxes)

 

12 Horns Ambient (Pets & Bones)

 

 

 

I couldprobably free some of these channels by loosing the snare and the horns ambientfor the bones/pets. We have a mixture ofpro and amateur players so it won’t be until music rehersals start this weekendthat I can see what needs to be pruned/modified…

 

I’ve alsobeen told that a group will be turning up with splits to multi track record theshow one night… but I’ve yet to find out how many channels they will record..

 

The othernegative for two desks is the enlarged foh footprint.

 

 

 

If anyoneknows where I can get hold of some ‘Black Hole’ anti-mic’s, please let me know…

 

 

 

Thanks forall your help.

 

 

 

 

[GR1]

I think you need to take control of the recording situation and then a lot will fall into place. Ask the person in charge of the recording what they want from you and if you don't get a sensible reply tell them what they are going to get and stick to it. The LS9 doesn't have direct outputs on each input channel so if they want each radio mic independantly they will need to provide a splitter at the receiver rack. I suggest that it is installed at the fit up and taken out at the get out so that you don't have people *uggering about with the rig during the run and potentially messing up show settings. They may not be expecting each band instument individually miked and will be expecting to hang mikes themselves so do find out. Equally their kit could be anything from a fully equipped truck with multis and splitters and a fridge full of champagne to a 4 track cassette deck to a guy with a laptop who tells you to feed the sound into 'that' USB socket. Find that out and you can concentrate on the show for the audience in the room and I agree with what has been said previously about sound levels. You will have a lot of those band mics turned off because if you make a mix and put the vocals on top some of the audience will have blood coming out of their ears.

[Alec]

1 Kick

2 Snare (poss bottom)

3 Overhead

4 Percussion ambient

5 Bass

6 Guitar

7 Keys-1

8 Keys-2

9 Keys-3

10 Horns Ambient (Flutes & Cello) - did you mean clari?

11 Horns Ambient (Saxes)

12 Horns Ambient (Pets & Bones)

 

Looks much more like it! Given that you're in a school hall, assuming typical school hall acoustics, I suspect you'd be able to eliminate (probably in this order)

 

12 Horns Ambient (Pets & Bones)

11 Horns Ambient (Saxes)

2 Snare (poss bottom)

3 Overhead

4 Percussion ambient

 

Like GR1 says, find out now what the recording people want, and then decide what you'll give them. Unless there's a business case for a recording of a live event, I always expect any recording to take a back seat. And it's still possible that it may just be someone with a Zoom H2 that needs a good position for it.

[Mark_UniLeeds]

Just to jump in on the recording arm of this thread, it won't be a multitrack recording but if you format a USB to FAT32( might be FAT16) which can be done on the desk, and jam it into the side of the screen (I mean the USB port) you can record striaght to wav. which may be of some help. I only mention it as a fair few of my colleagues recently have shown that they didn't realise the desk had this feature

[DrummerJonny]

Following on from Mark's Post, although this method will work, Your recorded mix would be most likely terrible.

 

For example, your keys and bass produce no (for the sake of argument) onstage sound, so a lot more is running through your mix than say, the horns or drums which fill the room anyway and only need gentle reinforcement at the most.

[Matthew Robinson]

I know nothing of this desk, but could you not record the mix from an aux?

[Simon Lyall]

I just did a panto, 350 seat theatre, with a pit band of two keyboards and a drum kit. Even though we ran fairly high levels at times (to get over the loud screaming cubs!) I didn't mic the drums at all, acoustically they came across the auditorium absolutely fine. Even the keys were not turned particularly high through the PA as the bleed from their pit monitors were more than sufficient.

 

Even when it got recorded (for archive purpose) I gave a group of the radio mic, group of the band/SFX and the onstage boundary mics, 4th channel was ambients which are what are mainly being used for the mix down (so the 'oh no it isn't!' comes through well)

 

It's surprising how little amplification acoustic instruments need, then again remember lots of them were designed in the days before speakers and PA.

 

 

Simon

[paulears]

Talked this up - had an enquiry about a small theatre doing Les Mis with 250 seats. Their plan was for 14 mics for the orchestra, and as all cast won't have radios, some hanging mics for the chorus. I wonder where this idea that orchestras need amplification is coming from. When I go down to the pit in our panto during the show, as soon as I open the door into the understate, where they're curtained off in the exposed section - it's ear shattering - and thats with just keys, sax, trumpet, drums, bass and percussion! It's a huge sound - a full orchestra rumping through 'at the end of the day' make me cringe.