Move in Black for effects on GrandMA

[Firewood1]

Hello,

 

I am currently getting to grips with the GrandMA and something is bugging me.

 

I have no problem using the Move In Black function, except that it does not apply to my effects. For example, if I am sitting in a cue and in the next cue some lights will fade up moving in a circle with the base point being my CS position. The lights "move in black" to the CS position, but only when the cue is played does the effect start to run. What I want is for the MIB function to recognise effects and preset those also, so the lights are already moving in their circle when they fade up.

 

Can this be done without jumping through hoops with multiple cues? I am hoping someone can point me to a setting somewhere!

 

Cheers

 

Colin

[Firewood1]

Well I have asked about and given the lack of responses on the forum also, I have come to the conclusion that the only way is to make a follow on cue which only starts the effect, but with intensity at zero.

 

I find it quite strange though that this is the case. Why have Move In Black at all? If I need to make a cue to preset an effect, I might as well make a cue to preset colour and position etc....kind of defeats the whole point of MIB in my opinion. Half a job!

 

Please someone correct me if I am wrong and this CAN be done automatically, like a Hog (II & III) and ChamSys would do without hesitation.

 

Many thanks

[timmeh2]

Hi

MA's wont start effects for you.

 

Have you considered just getting the effect running on the cue previous to the one that dims the fixtures? You can use the LOOP/LINK line on your Executor page to embed commands into each cue, or trigger them in the normal way by selecting an Effect and then pressing play in the window.

 

All the best

 

Timmeh

[mac.calder]

The MA treats effects very differently to how chamsys and Hog treat effects - in some ways, I prefer the "hog" way, in others the MA way is superior. One of the drawbacks is that you cannot MIB effects, the other major one being you cannot easily stop an effect on just one parameter.

 

A hog will put the effect information into the parameter. An MA treats effects as their own little world - cue lists have no idea what an effect will do until is has been called - so for all the list knows, it could be triggering an effect with intensity settings if it were to "MIB" the effect start - so it plays it safe.

[grandMA_the_2nd]

Just create a follow on q to start the effect whilst its in black, or delay the dimmer on the q it fades up in.... It's hardly tricky progra

mming .. even on major shows. A lot of programmers don't use the MIB feature so they havr full control of the show and do manual marking...

[Nick512]

the new version of effect in the latest software is far more powerful, and stopping anything anywhere is really easy.! As far as move in black why not just start the effect in the cue before and it will track through and be running when you fade in. I rarely use the MIB feature of any desk as I always like to know exactly what my fixtures are doing at any time in any cue.

[indyld]

Okay, I wasn't going to say anything, but then Tim, then Nick, so...

 

As a general point (slightly OT for the original question), Move In Black was/is a great feature for inexperienced ML programmers creating cue stacks so they don't have to worry about mark cues (as well as the finer consequences of tracking) and can do what they are used to: program state, set up next state, program that... It works fine in many sequences and can even be a time saver for the pros in some situations.

 

However, despite this lovely easy life that modern desks try to give us, newby programmers should make the effort to understand and implement their own marks. I also think it's worthwhile learning how not to rely on Block commands too, instead create your own blocks and get used to wrangling data "manually"

 

Even in the present day of advanced lighting control (versus the days of running 8 scans on a Sirius 24), developing these skills is still important because it enables total control and the ability to create complex sequences and hack things together to produce exactly the right effect or transition. And then tweak it.

 

So, +1 for making the small amount of effort to not use MIB.

[timmeh2]

Hi

 

Just to add to what Indy said...

 

I too am not a massive advocate of MIB. Whilst it can be a handy tool for quick and dirty plotting, it essentially covers up programming holes. All desk's MIB algorithms are capable of making horrific mistakes (MAs included) because all they do is look ahead to the next cue the fixture is used an puts LTP values to where it thinks they should be when the time comes to open the shutter.

 

By far the biggest flaw in all MIB systems is they don't know the physical limitations of the moving heads they are controlling. It takes time for your mover to go from one position to the other. MA's (and I'm sure other desks) have settings such as MIB move-after-delay and LTP fade time which gives you some control over how the MIB works. I've seen less sophisticated desks that just snap from one MIB position to another which creates its own problems.

 

The issue manifests itself further if you use timecode, which is what I invariably do; and you're firing off cues faster than MIB can move your heads. You can also watch MIB go wrong if you like to run multiple cues with different fade times together rather than one cue at a time. Here MIB will become a hindrance because what you want it to do is put everything in position at the start of the sequence, where what it will actually do is try to move things just before the cue it needs. This is where you need to do what the others have said which is to build your own mark cue and preposition your heads manually.

 

Fortunately its quite easy to sort out the problem on the MA; if you want to preposition a head into another cue simply go back a cue (or more), select your head (or group) and then simply press AT CUE X (where X) is the cue where your head is doing something, then press AT 0 to kill the dimmer, Then UPDATE your cue. You can also create a follow-on or delayed cue bolted onto another it to achieve the same effect.

 

Hopefully this will make some sense (to someone.)

 

All the best

Timmeh

[Firewood1]

Thanks for all the replies. Please bear with me when reading this....it is in no way intended as an attack on anybody, or even the MA, but instead, simply my opinion on some of the replies above. Read carefully enough and in one line you will see me actually credit the MA.

 

As an experienced Hog programmer, I disagree with the suggestion that MIB (or "a mark cue" as I would say) is only really intended for the "inexperienced user." In many cases a mark cue is sufficient to pre position all your parameters prior to them fading up. A Hog 3 runs mark cues in stages, which solves some of the "limitations" mentioned above. It runs initially as soon as the preceding cue is executed, therefore positioning any parameters for available fixtures (ie @0%). The mark cue runs again when the same cue is complete, finishing the job by positioning the parameters of any fixtures that have just completed fading to 0%. This therefore maximises (where possible) the time a fixture has to get into position before it will fade up. It goes without saying that for a very fast sequence of cues this is not sufficient and parameters would need to be manually put in position in cues further up the stack, as Timmeh mentioned above. In this case it is unavoidable.

 

It seems that several people who have commented do not use MIB functions very much and I am making the assumption these posts are made from the MA point of view, given the subject matter of my original question! On the MA1 (I can't speak for MA2), MIB is an incomplete function where effects are concerned, as it does not preset the fixtures to be doing exactly what they will be be doing in the next cue when they fade up. I can therefore totally understand why users have become accustomed to manually programming all mark cues. I guess with effect intensive programming it becomes almost second nature to keep on recording the follow on cue to start the effect which is suggested so much. GrandMA_the_2nd, I agree this is no problem for a few cues, and not at all "tricky programming," but for several hundred or even thousand cues this adds time. On other platforms however such as Hog 3, in the majority of scenarios the use of the "mark" facility is simply a very efficient way of pre positioning ALL fixture parameters, including those with applied effects. Their use is certainly not a measure of whether someone is experienced or not.

 

I must stress again that I am not belittling the MA and I certainly do not wish this thread to become yet another one dedicated to discussing the pros and cons of various consoles. In my introduction to the MA I have found several features which might be nice for other consoles to take notice of. However, the MIB function is very limited. When incorporated well into a console it can be a beautifully fluid programming tool that can save valuable time. Done badly and it will be pushed aside, used infrequently and considered nothing other than a basic aid to the beginner.

 

Can anyone see where I am coming from?

[indyld]

I'd agree that MIB doesn't have to be only for the less experienced, it's just that many implementations of it are pretty basic which is why many of us don't use it. It's a quick way for those trying to create a theatre stack with the additional 2 mac250s for their school show. My experience is that neither myself or many of my friends that are programmers use MIB extensively. This might be a generational thing, having grown up in earlier times, or because as the OP says, the implementations of MIB in many consoles is not elegant enough. I certainly wouldn't advocate no progress on this, we should get the machines to do the work.

 

As Mac says, the MA deals with effects in such a way that makes using MIB results undesirable in many situations. I certainly would want to insert a F/O cue, or a pre wait or retard the INTs so that a movement effect wouldn't just fire off after the previous cue that might be several pages/bars before I needed it. Fine for music in a big space, not fine in a small and intimate theatre.

 

Personally, I count stack options level MIB and Mark features as two different things as one is a blanket fix set in the options whereas Mark (one of the many good things that the Hog legacy popularised) is just really an easy way to insert mark data, having realised you need it.

 

As an educator, this is the key point for me.

 

My comments regarding making the effort to be learn how to mark and block manually were for the benefit of all those BR members wanting to learn about professional lighting control. It's important for a newbie to understand that they NEED to mark, and how to do it. And currently, it's still the most flexible solution.

 

Fortunately its quite easy to sort out the problem on the MA; if you want to preposition a head into another cue simply go back a cue (or more), select your head (or group) and then simply press AT CUE X (where X) is the cue where your head is doing something, then press AT 0 to kill the dimmer, Then UPDATE your cue. You can also create a follow-on or delayed cue bolted onto another it to achieve the same effect.

 

 

Forgot to ask the question but the way I read this, it creates two versions of the data in consecutive cues: Mark>Position then Q: Position (again)

 

Ideally, the "actual" cue would only contain Intensity up data, with all the pre setting done in the mark. That way, tracking is still our friend and edits only need to happen in the Mark cue and track through (direct edits rather than palettes, obviously)

[timmeh2]

Hi Indy

 

You are correct in that the LTP data would appear on two consecutive cues.

 

The way to deal with this is to edit the original cue and remove everything except the shutter information, which is quite easy on the MA:

 

EDIT CUE X

OFF FIXTURE / GROUP Y

FIXTURE / GROUP Y AT 100

UPDATE

 

You could also build yourself a macro to do this automatically if you keep needing to edit the same bunch of fixtures or groups. Sometimes I create 'bookmarks' in cue stacks by blocking the whole rig on a mark cue. I find this especially useful if plotting shows backwards (e.g. last act reherses first), so when I track forward it doesn't move something it shouldn't.

 

All the best

Timmeh

[ColourBlack]

To echo what Nick and Tim said...

 

I very rarely use Mark / MIB. Certainly not a blanket MIB option, by cuelist.

 

I build my MARK cues manually, the cue is always (x) .99, and I also create an Intensity Palette called 'MARK!'. So when I Mark, I put the marked lights into this intensity palette.

 

That way, I can see what exactly is in a Marked state, and I can grab those lights selectively.

 

P