HK Actor protection

[Feed me AV]

Hi there, I've recently purchased an HK Actor DX PA system for a bars outside terrace which they use ever Saturday. The problem I have is that the subs have now been blown twice. I'm using it as a half stack with the two tops and two active subs. The dj equipment is a Pioneer DJM 800 and two CDJ 1000 MkIII. I would like to know if there is anything I can purchase thats easy to set up to stop the DJs blowing the speakers. The guys at JHS who have repaired them said they have never seen any come back and have recommend I use all four subs but then I'm worried that they will blow all four. Any help would be much appreciated.

[paulears]

It's a simple one! Too much bass, hence why people usually use two subs a side. However, if the operators have the potential to turn the bass up even more as they have more to play with, they probably will. Brain dead DJs make solving this one very difficult, because if you introduce an inline protection device, then if it's limiter based, they'll try to drive every last ounce of bass and the limiter will be working hard all the time, making the sound suffer. If you try to band limit, they'll turn up the output and reduce the HF, making the same problem - worse sound. Why not be a difficult employer and warn them that if they pop any more drivers, they pay for the repairs. If the few mm on the faders costs them £ - maybe they'll be more careful. Bass drivers rarely fail without abuse. Things like the Actors are matched systems and over-running one section is pure operator stupidity. Maybe they'd be better off with a huge chipboard box with an 18" mega driver, or maybe you'd be better with more intelligent DJs.

[gyro_gearloose]

intelligent DJs.

Surely that's an oxymoron? I'm guessing you haven't met some of the local DJs? :)

[Robin D]

Perhaps the Op should just send in this lot?

[Feed me AV]

could it be how I set the levels on the speakers. I set the top volume control to around 2 o'clock and the subs to the 12 o'colck position. Would I be better turning them up? I thought that setting the subs to round 50% would be better for them.

 

The problem with the DJ's is that they have around 5 or 6 playing over the afternoon so unless I stand over them and watch all the time it's hard to get them to keep the same level. Also with it being outside the sound just disappears. I've had these set up in a club before and they were more than loud enough to deal with what the djs need. They are more than loud enough out doors for what they need and the bar manager doesn't want it to loud as there are residential houses near by.

[kerry davies]

A first for me as well as the JHS guys. The system is not four subs and two tops but two subs, two mid/highs and two tops.

 

I have had the use of HK Lucas for years, have two old 'uns in the cupboard and blowing speakers means that you are doing something odd. I suspect, like the main importers, that they aren't designed to be used without the mid/highs.

 

I cannot imagine an outdoor terrace which would justify the use of an Actor as HK make an awesome noise per watt and 3000W+ is a bit much. I had noise complaints from a neighbouring borough using a mere 1K of Lucas one time.

Proud of that one!

 

Cross-post so maybe your best bet is to double the noise from their monitors to con the gits into submission. A horrible farty speaker sometimes sorts them out to keep it down a bit.

Not Nicky Blackmarket though, good man but deaf!

[brainwave-generator]

What causes speaker death (mainly) is clipping. Clipping anywhere in the circuit has potential to do it, but amplifier clipping is the most likely.

 

As such, I'd probably opt for the 4-bin option, on the grounds that you'll get more bass, and each bin will only have to work as hard as at current. The Actor system is designed for 4 bins per 2 tops, so as it is, you're not giving them enough speakers to get a fully rounded sound, and they're having to push the bass on the EQ to get the sound they want, clipping the bass amplifiers and blowing the drivers. That is what I would guess is happening, I would reckon if you put the extra 2 bins in, you'd find things improving.

 

One thing you can also do is find yourself a smallish (12") active subwoofer, and stick it in the DJ booth. DJs often turn up the bass because THEY can't hear it, so giving them more bass than there actually is, in the booth, will be a help.

 

As much as I would agree with Paul that DJs are pretty useless when it comes to sound, and should not be given EQs or gain controls since they ALWAYS just turn everything up to 10 (literally, 9 in 10 DJs I've worked with just run in the red permanently); I think that by only using half the bass bins you're supposed to with that system, and then wondering why the 2 that you do use are being over-worked and blowing, is a bit silly.

 

If you have a cart that's supposed to be pulled by 4 horses, but you pull it with 2, and the horses keep getting injured, is it fair to assume that using 4 horses will only give you 4 injured horses? Or is it more fair to assume that your 2 horses are only getting injured because they're doing the job of 4 horses, and if you used 4 horses, it'll all work fine?

 

I think you are shooting yourself in the foot and need to get the other 2 bins out there.

[Shez]

could it be how I set the levels on the speakers. I set the top volume control to around 2 o'clock and the subs to the 12 o'colck position. Would I be better turning them up? I thought that setting the subs to round 50% would be better for them.

Going by the positions of the knobs is completely meaningless. The function of those knobs (as with the equivalents on the front of normal amps) is to set the level at which maximum output is achieved. Turning those knobs down and turning the DJ mixer up will still result in the same volume. Have a search of "gain structure" on this forum for more details of how to set up in a sensible manor.

If you invest in an LMS to protect the system, I'd suggest turning the controls on the speakers up to maximum to prevent the DJs trying to get more out of the system by fiddling. You can then set the limiters in the LMS to a value just below that which will cause the amps to clip.

[brainwave-generator]

A first for me as well as the JHS guys. The system is not four subs and two tops but two subs, two mid/highs and two tops.

 

Wrong!

 

The system is 2 active mid/tops, 2 active bins, and 2 passive bins (which run off the active ones).

[mervaka]

While this is not a silver bullet, I believe it's the best solution out there, not counting education, nannying, and superglueing the preamp knobs :P

[Feed me AV]

A first for me as well as the JHS guys. The system is not four subs and two tops but two subs, two mid/highs and two tops.

 

Wrong!

 

The system is 2 active mid/tops, 2 active bins, and 2 passive bins (which run off the active ones).

 

This is correct and you can use the system with just the two active subs and I thought this was enough. You have a number of inbuilt programable options on the back of the mid/top units such as just the tops, half stack (just active subs) with settings for a dj and a band and full stack with all subs and dj and band settings. There is also a double up setting if you're using two full Actor DX settings.

 

I'll try turning the system up and also adding the two passive subs. A friend of mine as given me a compressor/limiter and if the morons want to push the system then they can have rubbish sound as I would sooner protect my system. I've seen the Drawmer SP2120 and their office isn't to far from mine. I'll give them a call tomorrow and see what they think. Also I've seen one on eBay for £280.

 

I was Djing at the last event and was able to keep an eye on it but what I think is also a problem is badly mastered if mastered at all bootlegged mp3s some of the bassline house stuff being played was terrible and was setting the protect light blinking right away but didn't sound all that much bass.

[MarkPAman]

I've seen the Drawmer SP2120 ..........

 

Just remember that it's no good locking the front panel if they can get to the back. Bypassing a unit that has XLR in & out is rather easy!

[J Pearce]

A low cut just above the natural fall off the box can often help. The bass controls on most DJ mixers are shelf controls and boost all the way down to 10Hz, which can create a lot of subsonic signal that does very little except clip the amp input and over excurt the driver, as alluded to in your comment about clip lights but no real bass.

 

The HK stuff may or may not do this for you as it is active kit with some decent processing onboard.

[mervaka]

Just remember that it's no good locking the front panel if they can get to the back. Bypassing a unit that has XLR in & out is rather easy!

take another look at the Drawmer site, they've addressed this now :)

[HolyPhish]

Although unrelated to blowing speakers I have managed to 'train' some DJ's into accepting that they cannot turn their mixer to maximum.

 

We had a 'discussion' which involved the mention of how much it would cost to replace anything they blew. I then laid down the idea that I would tape over their faders to stop them pushing them too high and breaking anything.

 

It only works (and will only continue to work) because they haven't removed the tape.

 

 

Basically they are happy with it because they now know (because I explained it to them in simple english) that this is the best way to get 'good' sound.

 

My system works for my guys because they self police it, each DJ comments if another gets close to breaking the rules.

 

Maybe sitting down with your DJ's and walking through the whole process and explain things from your point of view will help.