Multiple projectors & Media Servers

[Matthew Robinson]

Hello,

 

I was approached last night by a member of the Theatre Society, asking about projection of scenery for their upcoming production of Guys and Dolls. I think the space will be too wide (and the back wall too far away) to use a single projector, so 2 or 3 will be necessary. Similarly, I suspect I shall have to use a media server so that it can be operated from the lighting desk (ETC element) and be reproducible.

 

Basically, my questions are:

1. How should I split one image accross multiple screens? As I see it, I have 3 options:
   
   • One media server showing an image which is squashed and then inputs it to a device to spread it across the number of screens bringing the aspect ratio back to what it should be like?
     
   • Media server per screen
     
   • Media server with 2 or 3 outputs to be able to do all the processing within the media server?
     

[*]Which media server would you suggest?

[*]Some general background knowledge of how to use a media server.

[*](E2A)I assume that the media server needs snap fades? If I were to combine it with lights needing long fades, is there a way of doing this on the desk I'm using (or running two cues at once?)

 

As you can see, I have no idea what I'm doing here, help!

 

Thanks to all contributors in advance,

Matthew

[Shez]

From my limited experience of playing with media servers...

 

1. Do it all in one server with multiple outputs

2. A Hippotizer

3. Big topic. You might need to ask some more specific questions

4. The server can fade video, just like the lighting. It's quite cool the first time you do it - pulling down a fader on the LX desk fades out LX and video together B-)

[Joe Bleasdale]

I was approached last night by a member of the Theatre Society, asking about projection of scenery for their upcoming production of Guys and Dolls. I think the space will be too wide (and the back wall too far away) to use a single projector, so 2 or 3 will be necessary. Similarly, I suspect I shall have to use a media server so that it can be operated from the lighting desk (ETC element) and be reproducible.

 

I would say your going to have trouble operating a Media Server from an Element console. It is not designed for Moving Lights, let alone Servers. If your comfortable on ETC products, look at getting a Eos or Ion in.

 

Basically, my questions are:

 

How should I split one image accross multiple screens? As I see it, I have 3 options:

 

Really depends on the server. I will elaborate more further on...

 

Media server per screen

 

That would be expensive, and eat up your channel count like hell. Do they even know how much servers cost?

 

Media server with 2 or 3 outputs to be able to do all the processing within the media server?

 

That would be more like it. Get a server which will allow you to do this.

 

Which media server would you suggest?

 

Media Servers are like consoles. It is down to preference. My preference is Hippo. 1 Hippo HD would do this job perfectly, however if your a Mac guy you may also want to look at Catalyst. Other good ones are HES Axon, PRG's Mbox, Martins Maxedia, Coolux Pandoras Box etc.

 

[*]Some general background knowledge of how to use a media server.

 

You are taking on a difficult task, and this should not be taken lightly. I recommend reading up on Media Servers as much as possible before committing to this gig.

 

A Media Server is patched and controlled in "Layers". If I was working with a basic Hippo, I would patch 5 Layers. 1 Master layer and 4 graphic layers. The Master layer allows you to alter keystone, global intensity, basically it affects all of the other layers. The graphic layers are all the same, they have 30-40 DMX channels PER LAYER. And you can control Media Bank, the clip (content, image/video), effects on these, in/out points, transitions etc. You can also alter the opacity to put multiple layers together to make one composite images.

 

I assume that the media server needs snap fades? If I were to combine it with lights needing long fades, is there a way of doing this on the desk I'm using (or running two cues at once?)

 

Not always. If you put it in a snap cue, it is like a Moving Light, it will snap to its new position/output. If you fade it, it shouldn't have a problem with this either. Depends how you program it really though.

 

As you can see, I have no idea what I'm doing here, help!

 

I would be weary taking this on. There are people in this industry who work with Servers everyday and do this for a living, and even we still get challenged. From the sounds of your setup, it wont be easy. It will be even more difficult considering you don't have any knowledge of Media Servers to start off with. If I were you, I would put your hands up and say "I dont think I can do this". Controlling 1 media server with 1 projector is a challenging task, but 3 projectors and edge blending etc is tough indeed. I don't mean to put you off, but this is a difficult thing to do.

 

IF you do want to proceed, I suggest you choose a server first... I recommend Hippo, the training is top notch. The support is great, and out of all the servers it is probably easiest to use. It also has a "simple mode". I suggest you give them a call and get some training, even if you dont take this on, it will educate you on Media Servers and will come in useful in the future. If you want to hire a Hippo, drop me a PM and I can give you a contact, he has a few.

 

This sounds like a "we want everything for nothing" situation. Judging by the fact you don't know much about it, I would proceed carefully.

 

Good luck. I hope this was of some help.

 

Thanks.

[Matthew Robinson]

I was approached last night by a member of the Theatre Society, asking about projection of scenery for their upcoming production of Guys and Dolls. I think the space will be too wide (and the back wall too far away) to use a single projector, so 2 or 3 will be necessary. Similarly, I suspect I shall have to use a media server so that it can be operated from the lighting desk (ETC element) and be reproducible.

 

I would say your going to have trouble operating a Media Server from an Element console. It is not designed for Moving Lights, let alone Servers. If your comfortable on ETC products, look at getting a Eos or Ion in.

I felt confident programming and op-ing the Element console when I last worked at that venue (with a rig of generics), but I wouldn't say that I feel totally confident with it. I feel more confident with Avo consoles, would a desk running Titan (eg, tiger touch) be any good?

 

Basically, my questions are:

 

How should I split one image accross multiple screens? As I see it, I have 3 options:

 

Really depends on the server. I will elaborate more further on...

 

Media server per screen

 

That would be expensive, and eat up your channel count like hell. Do they even know how much servers cost?

No. I've never used a media server before.

 

Media server with 2 or 3 outputs to be able to do all the processing within the media server?

 

That would be more like it. Get a server which will allow you to do this.

Would a Hippotizer do this?

 

Which media server would you suggest?

 

Media Servers are like consoles. It is down to preference. My preference is Hippo. 1 Hippo HD would do this job perfectly, however if your a Mac guy you may also want to look at Catalyst. Other good ones are HES Axon, PRG's Mbox, Martins Maxedia, Coolux Pandoras Box etc.

As I say, I have no idea about media servers. I can only go on the suggestions of the forum, and as 2 people have suggested hippo, that seems like the one to go for.

 

Some general background knowledge of how to use a media server.

You are taking on a difficult task, and this should not be taken lightly. I recommend reading up on Media Servers as much as possible before committing to this gig.

I have the whole of summer to read up on media servers, etc. This is, I suppose, the beauty of being at uni...

 

A Media Server is patched and controlled in "Layers". If I was working with a basic Hippo, I would patch 5 Layers. 1 Master layer and 4 graphic layers. The Master layer allows you to alter keystone, global intensity, basically it affects all of the other layers. The graphic layers are all the same, they have 30-40 DMX channels PER LAYER. And you can control Media Bank, the clip (content, image/video), effects on these, in/out points, transitions etc. You can also alter the opacity to put multiple layers together to make one composite images.

I think I'm following you. Are the layers like sources that you can mix between? Also, I can now see why media servers have artnet!

 

I assume that the media server needs snap fades? If I were to combine it with lights needing long fades, is there a way of doing this on the desk I'm using (or running two cues at once?)

 

Not always. If you put it in a snap cue, it is like a Moving Light, it will snap to its new position/output. If you fade it, it shouldn't have a problem with this either. Depends how you program it really though.

Ok, I will look into this as part of my research.

 

I would be weary taking this on. There are people in this industry who work with Servers everyday and do this for a living, and even we still get challenged. From the sounds of your setup, it wont be easy. It will be even more difficult considering you don't have any knowledge of Media Servers to start off with. If I were you, I would put your hands up and say "I dont think I can do this". Controlling 1 media server with 1 projector is a challenging task, but 3 projectors and edge blending etc is tough indeed. I don't mean to put you off, but this is a difficult thing to do.

It does sound difficult, having read this post. I think I'll do a little more research before saying yes or no, however.

 

IF you do want to proceed, I suggest you choose a server first... I recommend Hippo, the training is top notch. The support is great, and out of all the servers it is probably easiest to use. It also has a "simple mode". I suggest you give them a call and get some training, even if you dont take this on, it will educate you on Media Servers and will come in useful in the future. If you want to hire a Hippo, drop me a PM and I can give you a contact, he has a few.

I will do this. Where is the training held, and how much does it cost?

 

Good luck. I hope this was of some help.

Thanks, it's put this kind of thing into perspective.

 

Would it be easier (to set up, not necessarily to op) to do all the video from a video mixer in some way?

 

Thanks,

Matthew Robinson

[Joe Bleasdale]

This book will probably help... http://www.plsnbookshelf.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22&products_id=28

 

That is written by an AWESOME programmer. It has a section on Media Servers and it also gives you the details of Programming without being desk specific. Very good read. Media Servers have Art-Net inputs and outputs. The input allows you to control several servers over a network (Art-Net is just DMX over Ethernet), the output is for stuff like pixel mapping.

 

Training for Hippo is usually a few hundred quid I think. It is held in London, however Lee House at AC Video may be able to help you, they have a Leeds office which may be closer?

 

Layers are like mixes, sort of. You can play media on them, or input live video from a vision mixer or camera etc. Very useful. You can have 1 layer active outputting an image, or all of the layers working together making a composite image consisting of multiple layers. Or any mix of those...

 

If you have a video dept at uni it may be better to do a vision mixer situation. BUT Media Servers were designed to be integrated with Lighting, and once mastered, you will have tons more design capabilities. Hippo is the easiest and it will integrate with Titan on a pearl, so you will be able to see the Media Files on the console (like gobo and colour thumbnails).

 

On a cost side of things... A server isn't cheap to Buy or Hire. Speak to these guys - http://www.zeelight.co.uk/mediaserver/mediaserver/hippotizerhd.html - Tell Oz I told you to call. You maybe able to do it with a smaller Hippo. It depends what resolution the projectors are, hippo works on output resolution rather than outputs. A Hippo V3 HD can do...

 

4 outputs @ 1920x1080 (HD)

or

6 outputs @ 1280x1024

or

8 outputs @ 1024x768

or

8 outputs @ 1280x720

 

You would need output extenders for the above... Dual Head to Go, Tripple Head to go, etc.

 

Any other questions, do feel free to ask B-)

 

Thanks,

[Matthew Robinson]

Ok, so could I put a hippo on one universe of artnet coming out of a tiger touch (And use other universes to control generics & moving heads)? How do you get content onto a media server? What are the DMX channels going to be (just examples)? Does the media server stretch the image, and how do you tell the media server which screen is where?

 

Thanks

Matthew

[Joe Bleasdale]

Ok, so could I put a hippo on one universe of artnet coming out of a tiger touch (And use other universes to control generics & moving heads)?

 

Yes exactly. You CAN control a Hippo with DMX, but you need to ask the hire company for the USB > DMX adapter for it.

 

How do you get content onto a media server?

 

Stick a DVD into its disc drive, or connect an external HDD with the content on. Then (on hippo) you open the Media Manager component, then drag and drop the content from the device, to the server.

 

What are the DMX channels going to be (just examples)?

 

http://www.green-hippo.com/support/index.php?_m=downloads&_a=viewdownload&downloaditemid=78&nav=0,4 That is the latest DMX Protocol. It isn't really useful unless you know what you are looking for. It is best to sit down with someone who knows the desk and the server and have them explain things instead. All servers use different terminology (like lighting desks).

 

Does the media server stretch the image, and how do you tell the media server which screen is where?

 

Well, in this case you are using projectors. So, you would use the Screen Warp component to make a mask that blends all of your projectors together creating one seamless image. Then you can use Geometry controls within the server to move the content to where you want it, zoom in and out, alter aspect ratio and so on... In my opinion it would be best to take the Hippo training, Program the Video side of things on the Hippo with a timeline or some Cue Controller functions, then trigger it from DMX (you will have to patch a timeline layer on the desk then). All of this sort of thing should be covered in the training, and if it isn't, if you ask Simon (the Hippo trainer) is is a nice enough bloke to answer your questions.

 

Regarding content, if you are using 3 projectors... You may want to have the content made in the exact resolution of the total image size. Ask about this in the Hippo training. If anything, incorrect content will probably be your downfall - allow plenty of time for content testing, and even more time for troubleshooting. If you use the company I recommended, I freelance for them as a Hippo Programmer etc so you can always book me for a day to assist with setup and programming (<not cheap though!).

 

Thanks,

[Matthew Robinson]

Ok, so when making content, for VGA display (400*600) for an array M*N, I'd need to make it 400M*600N, ie for an array 1 projector high and 3 wide, It'd need to be 400*1800? I don't know about the budget but I think it would be more worthwhile for the theatre company to bring someone like you in to help us rather than sending me on a course. If we were to provide you with the equipment and the video in 400*1800 format (and I have no idea how to do that, but that's a different topic) could you come in and program the hippo and get it so that we can select a 'look' from the desk and program it?

 

Thanks,

Matthew

[Joe Bleasdale]

I will PM you..

 

Thanks.

[Pete McCrea]

Catalyst is definitely worth a look too. Simillar to Hippo, but will run on various levels of Apple hardware depending on the resolution that you require.

 

Taking it to a more basic level, if you don't need it to be controlled by the LX, then you could use a PC/Mac with a dual or triple head to go, or a pair of projectors with built in soft edge function and then run content as a single extended desktop monitor from a range of playback software such as Powerpoint/Keynote, or QLab etc.

 

Media servers are great, but your budget could start to go into several £000 very quickly, especially once you add in larger format projection for the job too.

 

We recently provided projection for a client that wanted a 40' projected back drop, which they provided the content and playback hardware - A Mac Pro running software called Pro Presenter (Designed for Churches, but quite flexible and powerful and with a good 'background' graphics capability). We provided a pair of 10k Barco's with Scenergix softedge, and did the blend in the units. Looked great, but still around £1400/day for the projection hardware excluding playback machines. Not too sure on the rates per day on hippo, but Catalyst 'Systems' from the chap we would point you too are in the region of £3-400/day - a quick google shows £675/day £900/Week for Hippo V3 HD.

 

Not trying to scare you off, but point out one aspect, and suggesting that you look at the possible alternatives.

 

HTH

Pete.

[Matthew Robinson]

Catalyst is definitely worth a look too. Simillar to Hippo, but will run on various levels of Apple hardware depending on the resolution that you require.

 

Taking it to a more basic level, if you don't need it to be controlled by the LX, then you could use a PC/Mac with a dual or triple head to go, or a pair of projectors with built in soft edge function and then run content as a single extended desktop monitor from a range of playback software such as Powerpoint/Keynote, or QLab etc.

 

Media servers are great, but your budget could start to go into several £000 very quickly, especially once you add in larger format projection for the job too.

 

We recently provided projection for a client that wanted a 40' projected back drop, which they provided the content and playback hardware - A Mac Pro running software called Pro Presenter (Designed for Churches, but quite flexible and powerful and with a good 'background' graphics capability). We provided a pair of 10k Barco's with Scenergix softedge, and did the blend in the units. Looked great, but still around £1400/day for the projection hardware excluding playback machines. Not too sure on the rates per day on hippo, but Catalyst 'Systems' from the chap we would point you too are in the region of £3-400/day - a quick google shows £675/day £900/Week for Hippo V3 HD.

 

Not trying to scare you off, but point out one aspect, and suggesting that you look at the possible alternatives.

 

HTH

Pete.

 

Hi Pete. Thanks for you post. Much as I'd like a media server, now you mention that, I think I'd lost sight of the goal and focussed too much on the equipment to achieve it. I downloaded Screen-monkey, and it seems quite good. Do you know if it would automatically split an image across 3 screens (plus allow a preview screen)? Or could I squash my image and then use a video wall controller to stretch them back out?

[Shez]

At this stage are you able to specify exactly what you need the "system" to be able to do? Will it just be showing static images, or video? You've already asked about fades so presumably they're needed? Does it have to be triggered by the LX desk or could you manage with a separate "go" button? Any other features necessary?

 

As you rightly say, define the problem completely first before trying to find the right solution. If it's just a handful of static images, then a full blown media server will likely be overkill (although they are full of nice features that make life easier for this kind of thing.) And yes, video is an expensive medium to work in. Some (inexperienced) directors seem to think that it's a cheap and easy alternative to using real sets...

[Matthew Robinson]

At this stage are you able to specify exactly what you need the "system" to be able to do? Will it just be showing static images, or video? You've already asked about fades so presumably they're needed? Does it have to be triggered by the LX desk or could you manage with a separate "go" button? Any other features necessary?

As many artistic people are, the director was quite vague about what he wanted, just saying that he wanted to use video for scenery. The production is 'Guys and Dolls', and IIRC from when we did it at college, the locations need to be a Broadway street (probably video to try and incorporate the hustle and bustle of a busy street), the night-club (probably static), the mission house (probably static), a sewer (probably video so that there is running water) and Cuba (if the sea is in shot, video to get the movement of the waves). I'd like the scenery to fade in and out if possible, preferably with the lights (hence wanting to run it from the desk). But I suppose ops are cheap (free), so I see no reason on cost grounds that there could be a separate 'go' button. The ability to create a cue-list is the only other necessary feature. I downloaded screen monkey, and that seemed good, but in the short time I played with it, the only things I'm not sure about are its ability to split an image across multiple screens, having only one external screen on my laptop and I haven't found its ability to set up cue lists?

 

As you rightly say, define the problem completely first before trying to find the right solution. If it's just a handful of static images, then a full blown media server will likely be overkill (although they are full of nice features that make life easier for this kind of thing.) And yes, video is an expensive medium to work in. Some (inexperienced) directors seem to think that it's a cheap and easy alternative to using real sets...

Should have listened to my systems engineering lecturer more! I agree that a media server is actually probably overkill, and at the prices that media servers seem to be costing, too much expense (although I don't know the budget yet) and too much complication.

[swax]

Hello.

 

Try this: http://www.concisegroup.com/live-presentations/watchout/index.php?gclid=CKLs88ivpqkCFYYOfAodGlQ1vg

 

Or for a cheaper option (With no edge blending) try a triple head - http://www.dabs.com/products/matrox-triple-head-2g0-43JM.html much cheaper and can be controlled from your PC. Content and how it dissolves/transitions is then up to you (E.g. done in Final-cut/Premier etc). The issue with the triple head is that the projectors will need to be aligned extremely carefully - minimal keystoning for the outer two projectors, and it also means you need to space them very equally apart with the same trim height (If flown). I've used it before for cheaper corporate gigs where its been essentially 'fluff' in a room - but we'd use Watchout and or/Hippo in conjunction with a ScreenproII to get the best effect.

[themadhippy]

crikey cant any production be done without resorting to video,every look/effect for guys n dolls is easily achieved with a few simple gobos,a tubular rippler or 2 and a bit of creativity.Id better sit down now,dont want to rock the boat to much