Industry questions

[tbexon]

Hi I am currently at the stage of my life where I have to decide on a career.

 

To help us do this my school has organised a number of career sessions with our senior tutors. We have been given the task of going away and researching a particular industry or career we are thinking about and then put this information in a report type thing.

 

I am planning on going into the technical industry (probably as a audio engineer) and so thought this would be a good question to ask some of these questions. Some questions could be considered rude or probing questions however I am not asking for SPECIFIC things to the person more general things

 

First question is what is the average salary for someone working as a live audio engineer. I've done some research into this and most place I've seen suggest that obviously it increases with the more experience you have however the figure I have heard said a few times is £40,000 would people think this to be about right, (just to clarify I'm not asking people to tell me or even suggest their own salaries just if this value sounds about right for a median value) I realize this is a industry where there may be more variation than others.

 

Second question is what sort of hours a week do most people work (again I realize that the hours are probably quite alot longer than other industries and also they are at quite unsocial times

 

third and finally is there a lot of job opportunities out there, this one I genuinely have no clue about I think it's more asking are there not very many jobs and lots of applicants or alot of jobs and a shortage of good applicants.

 

Any help would be much appreciated

Thanks

[paulears]

I'd love to know who your contacts are that told you 40 grand? The reality is that while there are people who earn that, far more are out of work, or getting good pay for short term jobs, then nothing for a while. Staff jobs at the kind of venues who need live sound engineers might pay around half your figure. Most people who are in demand for the usual touring circuit could well get that kind of pay if they worked continuously, but that's not how it works.

 

To get top dollar, you have to be worth it, and already doing it. many live sound engineers I know are not rolling in it by any means. I doubt your tutors can offer any real help as it's an area very few people know about, and few follow a predictable career path. many were just in the right place when a better job came along. Large scale touring is probably the best paid, but although it's fine having a named act as your career goal, it's probable you will never get up the ladder before you're worn out!

 

The fact you don't know much about the industry suggests you're not really aware of it at all. Hours wise - just say long and leave it with that. Very often it works like this on tour, wake up, get off bus - work until late (or even early morning) get back on bus, sleep. Wake up and repeat until your nerves can't stand it! On the other hand a resident sound engineer, like some I know, might go into work in the afternoon, go home about 11, 5 or 6 nights a week, all year, working every bank holiday and many Sundays - often including Christmas Day and New Year - all for 18 grand a year, and that is good compared to many similar venues.

 

In theatre, sound engineering as in mixing visiting shows may well be even lower paid, as a casual on perhaps even minimum wage, but with good get out money.

 

Most people making decent amounts in this business run their own firm - so they own the PA, the truck and employ some useful people - the package deal approach

[kerry davies]

Like Paul your "research" made me laugh then worry about the source of such figures. National Statistics Office says that only 10% of full-time, male employees get more than about £50K pa (and that includes the bankers!) and the bottom 10% gets less than £15K. The UK median is around £27K even including Bob Diamond's £7m or whatever. I think you will find that starting wages in technical theatre are pretty close to the lowest of those figures.

 

Let us know where the £40K came from please Tom, if it was a teacher maybe get him to post on here and take the flak, or as we call it, a reality check. Think on this; what happens to the rock technical crew when the "star" is in the studio or rehab or "resting"?

[d.breeze]

A career in live entertainment isn't usually something people "have to decide" to do. I am pretty sure all of us on here and in the whole indsutry do it because we love it, and that makes up for the long hours and low pay. Some people even suggest that because we all love it employers know they can pay us less and make us work longer hours than someone doing shift work in a factory because we want to be there doing that kind of work. It's not uncommon for casual staff at the bottom of the ladder to be on about half minimum wage and no-one bats and eyelid.

 

IF (yes that's a really big '"if") I worked 5 days a week 52 weeks a year and each day got payed the day rate I would like to charge I would get an anual salaray of around £40k. However that is rarely the case. I have never worked 5 days a week for 52 weeks a year, sometimes I work 5 days in a month, sometimes I manage 10 different jobs in one week. Sometimes I am lucky enough to charge more than my usual day rate and sometimes I have to undercut myself and even make a loss on a job just to get the work and make a new contact hoping for repeat business. Even if I did work all the days mentioned I would probably collapse due to exhaustion as a typical day can last 18 hours or more on some jobs.

 

As Paul said you should expect to work every bank holiday (Christmas, New Year, Easter, royal weddings) weeked work and Friday/Saturday nights are very common. You'll rarely enjoy a social night out as in the back of your mind you'll know you could be making the club sound better than it does and getting paid for it.

 

Most moderately successful people in this industry seem to level out around £25k a year. For that kind of money you'd need to be an in-house technical manager working about 50 unsociable hours a week or a very successful freelancer/contractor with a long list of contacts so your work never dries up. Really successful big name engineers could probably earn your magic £40k but only after 20+ years in the business and they'd still have to rely on contractacting and other work to suppliment their touring salary to get it up to £40k.

 

That may seem very negative, but I do love my job. I don't care that I work stupid hours and don't always get paid a lot because I love what I do.

 

Hope that shines some light on the issue for you, I doubt many lecturers actually know a lot about the world of live entertainment; none of mine ever did.

[tbexon]

Yeah cheers for your comments! I was skeptical of the 40k as I did think that seemed quite high but like you said, to me the money doesn't make any difference, I do this because I love doing it and would happily work those hrs if it meant I could do the job. The 40k came from the 2 sites our tutor made us go on can't remember the names off the top of my head but that was really only one of my questions I just wanted that clarifying.

 

Another question I'd like to ask while I have the opportunity: I'm currently trying to get as much experience as possible to build up my portfolio and I was wondering what you guys thought was the best way of going about this. Obviously I've sent emails to all the main local technical companies and a few venues and most have been really polite and helpful however very few have actually offered me gigs as they just didn't have anything that I could get involved in, which is fair enough, however what I wanted to ask was I got this response about 3 months ago and I was wondering if you guys think that resending some emails to them asking if they have anything now if that would be naggy and pushy and more likely to damage my chances?

[paulears]

The thing to remember is that our industry is one where our work patterns mean that everyone has a specific role, and it's often impossible to have the usual supervisor/trainee system running. You don't take people unless they are useful, and don't need looking after. The most annoying thing is when you could explain exactly what you want doing, but it's just quicker and more reliable to go and do it yourself. So getting in is very tricky - but once you've done it, people ask you back. There's a topic on the go at the moment on how best to get work. here.

[d.breeze]

It would be interesting for us if you could try and re-find those sites. I'd like to know who thinks we all earn £40k!

 

Regarding getting experience it's a different story for different people. I had a keen interest from a young age, took a Music Tech A level, fellow students soon started asking me for help on their projects, then asking me to mix their band in the studio, then asking me to mix their band live. From doing live work I met other bands/promotors/venue managers who asked me to work other gigs and so on. Then I moved to uni and repeated the sequence, one guy I met on a gig offered me an in-house position, after 9 months I took over from him as head-tech and spent 3 years there building experience and contacts. While working there I started getting regular freelance/contract work which just continued to build.

 

I've had a quick look at your CV and it seems like you've started exactly the right way and have some good experience with a good range of kit in a good range of venues which should always reflect well on any prospective employer reading it; it is however far too long and quite wordy. CVs really should be 2 pages maximum with all the relevant information nicely condensed so that someone can skim over it (which they will) and gleam all the relevant information quickly as opposed to having to read 2 pages of prose to find out what experience you have. But at 16 it looks good, you just have to condense it. On the subject of your age, it could well put a lot of people off, which is unfortunate but it will happen so be prepared for it. I was still getting turned down because of my age at 21...now I just don't tell anyone how old I am!

 

E-mailing venues again could work as they may well have innocently forgotten you, or they could consider it to be nagging. It really depends on who you're e-mailing and what kind of day they've had. Try it, you never know what might happen. I've noticed you are local(ish) to me, who have you contacted so far? Have you tried the York Barbican? They've just re-opened with a new technical manager (who I am yet to find out the name of) and as I understand they have no local crew or casual technical staff yet so they might be able to give you some work.

 

Making well constructed posts on here also helps. There's been a few of a similar ilk lately where the OP used very poor SPaG and immediately got ripped for it, and rightly so! There could be prospective employers on here reading posts and everyone judges you on your SPaG. If you can't be bothered to proof read a post on a forum then how do we know you can be bothered to check the belt pack of a mic is actually on before the main acts walks on stage. Thankfully your posts seem well crafted if a little mis-informed but you are only young. Also do lots of reading on here, follow the posts of people such as Paulears and Kerry Davies as they are often found talking a lot of sense on a lot of topics.

[kerry davies]

It is an unfortunate fact of worklife that at 16 you will be virtually impossible for a professional company to employ on live event production. You might get work experience though even that is difficult to arrange and your best bet is to get involved in Amdram for the present. Under 18 it is problematic on many levels not least for insurance purposes.

 

Take some time with the search function and look for entry to the industry/starting out topics, of which there are more than a few. All your questions have been asked and answered many times on BR and there is a wealth of information available.

 

Oh, and ask your tutor why he is a tutor rather than a roadie, might prove interesting. FYI, both Paul and I have and do sometimes teach but always seem to get dragged back into live performance of one sort or another. Must be addicts.

[J Pearce]

Firstly - don't listen to a word connexions say, they haven't the faintest clue about any job outside office and clerical work.

 

Secondly - the notion of a career is a foolish one. Get a job you enjoy, when its no longer fun start applying for something different. A 'career' is a silly idea mostly for bankers who want to work their way up to earning silly money; sadly teaching is another field where the fallacy of a career pervades, this means it gets passed on to every child, and most of our country now feel they have failed if their 'career' isn't progressing. Work to live, don't live to work.

 

How to get in - a good number of pro technicians started out in amdram, or helping the guy down the local pub do sound for the bands etc. Don't be shy to find out the local amdrams or music scene and lend a hand. Don't expect to make money, but don't expect to end up significantly out of pocket - don't be a mug!

From there make contacts with the pros with whom you make contact. Get a mobile number that will stay the same for years to come and an email address that isn't imabozo1812_*780ahgmeeha@freeemailforidiots.com. Proper domain names don't cost the earth, and googlemail addresses seem to have a more professional air about them than hotmail/yahoo etc.

 

Don't pretend to know stuff you don't. Don't pretend to be bigger/older/wiser/stronger than you are. Just be enthusiastic (but not to the point of crazed madness), willing to work and professional in all you do.

 

Lastly, it's only a jobif it don't pay enough to pay the landlord/keep the wife/feed the kids get a different one.

[Grum]

Did post a reply here but then figured I might get shot down in flames so edit to remove and PM instead.

[Matthew Robinson]

Firstly - don't listen to a word connexions say, they haven't the faintest clue about any job outside office and clerical work.

 

They had no idea of the difference between and Electronic/Electrical Engineer and an Electrician. Few people do, which is in the main forgiveable, but not when the people are giving you advice on how to achieve your career aims. My conversation at school went something like this:

Me: 'I'm considering doing electrical engineering'

Connexions: 'You should do the vocational option. Do a small number of GCSEs + the vocational training offered alongside'.

 

I was pretty much a straight 'A' student, and they told me to go and do vocational qualifications? Thankfully, I knew they were talking rubbish, took separate sciences; went on to do A-levels and got into university to study electrical/electronic engineering.

[ramdram]

Believe it or not £40k pa is on the low side for these mythical wages!!!

 

One of our younger volunteers (who has an HND in live sound engineering) went for a job interview at a PA company which consisted of an interview proper and working stints at IoW and Glastonbury. The tasks included unloading the kit, setting it up, testing, handing it over to "the" sound engineer as a working entity and then packing it all away again afterwards...with the added attraction of free accommodation on a tour bus.

 

He was told he could earn as much £80k pa, yes £80K pa when he reached the dizzy heights of being "the" sound engineer...but he would have to start on about £15K. No mention was made of who would be paying this munificent sum by the way.

 

He was paid the going rate for the events...for someone with his experience. However once the events were finished he never heard another thing.

 

In short tbexon, it was all flim flam, this bloke was used as cheapish labour with the carrot of an enormous salary.

 

Your best bet, which you know anyway, is to work as hard as possible and get the best A levels grades you can. The better the grades the more options you have.

 

Interestingly you write and spell very well for a sixteen year old...far beyond the usual txt spik we expect from your peers, ** laughs out loud **. Suggest therefore you consider a career in medicine or the law and get your theatrical fix from amdram.

[MrBoomal]

We are all poor.

 

It's a fact.

 

You thought the days of the Victorian workhouse were over?

 

Not in the world of theatre.

 

You have to REALLY want to do this job or you will explode from resentment within a month.

 

You will be poor, you can never see your friends, your wife/girlfriend will leave you.

 

No one you talk to will understand why you work how you do .Why don't you just walk out ? they will ask.

 

If you have to think about the answer then you are in the wrong job.;

 

(I am writing this at 01.20am. Finishing off my April staff rota.,was in at .9.00 this morning to supervise de-rig. Just an indication of life in the real world.)

 

But it can be the best job in the world. EVER!!

 

 

 

And in answer to the first line of your post, actually you're really not.

You don't have to decide the rest of your life when you're 17/18.

 

I went into banking. Then publishing. Then became a broadsheet photographer. Then fell into this lark when I was mid thirties.

There's always time to change your mind.

[Junior8]

Hi I am currently at the stage of my life where I have to decide on a career.

 

With all due respect you're not. You are at the stage of life where you need to make the best/most interesting use of the next set of opportunities. Replies #9 & #8 have it right.

[tbexon]

Cheers for all your comments they've been really helpful

 

I think I should have been more clear in my original post I definitely want to go into this industry as it's something I love doing it.

 

The advice you guys have given about experience has been especially helpful so cheers for that I think I will send another round of emails to the companies

 

thanks for all your help

Tom