EmmaThompson Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Are you seriously suggesting that if someone called me up and asked for technical support as they had a show go up in ten minutes that I should tell them to put the phone down, go and find their teacher who may know nothing about it, and get them to call me back? I always do my best to help ANYONE who calls me up, regardless of whether their show is a in a school or if they're about to go up on a stadium tour - the show is always the most important thing to the person lighting it! Having been in that position myself, if I'd called up a manufacturer and got told to get my teacher (who knew nothing about lighting) to call them back, there would be no way I'd want to use their kit again. If it involves opening up the console and taking things apart, then fair enough. But if it's trying re-programming something or entering a new license code, then I really don't see the issue. Like Smiffy says, anyone that knows the desk is welcome to call up - if the student knows the console, it's often better them calling us up than a teacher with buying power who knows nothing about what any of the buttons do. Sorry but speaking as an ex Teacher and HOD, that simply isn't, and legally can't be, the case. There is no way a school student or indeed any kind of student should be ringing suppliers about and/or entering codes in equipment owned by their institution. Full stop. They may well have more knowledge - and when I was school student in the 1970s I certainly did - but that isn't the point. It isn't their equipment and they have no legal responsibility for it. Frankly if there is not a member of staff on the premises who is capable of dealing with the issues then perhaps they shouldn't have the equipment at all. If I was still in teaching and found that any firm had been giving technical support on my gear direct to a 16 year old there would be hell to pay. And while you may not charge for technical support another may well - and assume that the person phoning is entitled to make a financial commitment. The unexpected charge situation Paul outlined may not be common in this field but I can recall a preservation charity being let in for a very big bill in very similar circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junior8 Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 By that logic then I should never have updated or regressed any software on any of the Moving Lights or Consoles that I have ever rented. It was never owned by me, and the legal responsibility for it was the hirer's, usually my client. With respect you are not a 16 year old student dealing with school equipment. I was referring directly to that situation - and making a general point about that situation. On the matter of the non-functioning desk you are of course correct and I don't doubt the OP's abilities or motives. But in educational institutions it can't be like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jay Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Maybe looking at it this way. I have called the manufacturer (in this case, since one of their reps in in the loop) AVO. They tell me to go and get a teacher, Ok so now the teacher is on the phone, who hasnt a clue how to use the gear and follows the phone instructions and walla it works. The sutdent then asked (becuase of course a school is where you learn things) how did you do that and what was wrong? Answer: I dont know, I just pushed the buttons they told me two, who cares? it's fixed now. Good it's fixed but that student who wants a career in this field has no knowledge of what the problem was nor how to remidy it in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junior8 Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Are you seriously suggesting that if someone called me up and asked for technical support as they had a show go up in ten minutes that I should tell them to put the phone down, go and find their teacher who may know nothing about it, and get them to call me back? Yes if you put it that way I suppose that's exactly what I'm saying. I'm not saying it's right or sensible either - just the way it is. And you'll note that in my post I also addressed the issue of teacher's lack of expertise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmmaThompson Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Answer: I dont know, I just pushed the buttons they told me two, who cares? it's fixed now. Good it's fixed but that student who wants a career in this field has no knowledge of what the problem was nor how to remidy it in the future. Exactly. People learn a huge amount in schools, that's what they're there for. School productions may not be the most glamourous things in the lighting industry, but they're a good place to practise ideas, techniques, or just to see if lighting is what you want to get into. Yes, this can mean you get problems with things not working that aren't programmed properly, but students that call me up almost always ask 'how to' questions, and going through how to make something work the way they want over the phone can't ever be a bad thing, surely? There is no educational value in getting someone higher up to call and press the buttons for them - most of the time the teachers won't even care if the chase speed is a little slow, or they can't save gobos into a palette, but the student will. With the OP, if someone has an issue before a show that requires help, then yes I will still help them out over the phone/email. And never charge for this - I can't think of a manufacturer that would? If it's spare parts, or sending the console in, then I can imagine people start charging, but not before. Yes if you put it that way I suppose that's exactly what I'm saying. Wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smiffy Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 I appreciate the sentiment Junior 8, I do, however we are talking about the real world, and comparing that to your view of how things should be. When I have been doing a support role, the priority is always the show. Therefore, the Console must work, come what may. In my case, and of course in Emma's, we are talking about what you could feasibly refer to as 'Top End' manufacturers (and the support of their products). All of the top end manufacturers, in my experience take the role of welcoming the next generation into the fold quite seriously, and whether the person who calls you up is 16 or 61, then they will get the same level of support, without a million questions as to whether or not they are 'authorised' to be making the tech support request. In the case of entering a software code, being stuck with a new console and needing to get some cues into it, or any one of a myriad of issues, then the support person should always do what they can to assist. If the call starts to head into more 'dangerous' territory, then of course the Support person needs to use their common sense. If the person on the end of the phone sounds young, then you will ask more questions about the kit, and who is responsible for it, and if needs be, to speak to them, explain what you are going to need to do, and receive confirmation from the person supervising the student that what you are going to ask them to do is acceptable to them. Likewise, if I must talk with the teacher, and spend 45 minutes doing a support job that would take the student 5 minutes, I'll ask to talk to the student at the end of the call and explain what was done and why. Regardless of all of the above however, I will re-iterate that the priority is always the show, and provided that the support issues are something that can be sorted out with keystrokes or at worst, a few power cycles and ensuring that the insides are all well connected, then whoever calls will get the assistance they need. I can understand and appreciate that you might take umbrage with a student calling Tech Support about a bit of school kit that isn't working properly, but to my mind, and I'm sure that of many others who deal with Tech Support, then the fact that the student has taken the initiative to call me and resolve the problem, rather than sitting on their rear and waiting (inevitably for a lot longer than is really necessary) for a School Tech or Teacher to deal with it, then I applaud them, and will do everything I can to assist. Cheers Smiffy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junior8 Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Please I'm not arguing - I'm all for enabling kids but there are legal limits. The student may know more than the teacher but in law that is not recognized - the Head through the staff are responsible for everything that goes on on the premises. It is not 'my view' I'm just telling you what the situation in educational institutions actually is, or at least was when I was in them. You should understand that schools are quite different legal entities to most others largely because the pupils are under the care of the teachers in loco parentis. Anyway I'll shut up now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smiffy Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 I'm sure that you are not Junior8, but those of us that have done support at the higher end of the market take those responsibilities very seriously, and like to ensure that anyone can feel that they can call with an issue rather than struggling through. Consequently, we'll argue quite vehemently for the approaches that we take. Cheers Smiffy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scjb Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 in loco parentis.The world may well have far fewer problems if teachers were really allowed to act in loco parentis... Anyway, back to the debate (which is an interesting one btw). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ali2580 Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 I'll use my old school as an example. If something was wrong with their Zero88 desk and they had to phone the manufacturer I can't think of one person within that building who will know about DMX. Maybe there is but if there was, then they would have been more involved during productions. Same way that if there was a problem with Main Output L on the sound desk and a teacher was told that, they wouldn't have a clue. I agree that any student should have permission from a teacher/HOD but surely if it is the student that knows more then they should be the one in contact with the support team. E.G. At a certain school I have once been to, the 'technicians' there couldn't get float mics to work and it wasn't till I pointed out they need Phantom that they went 'oh yeah'. Using this as an example if there was a problem with the control desks, surely it's better to have someone on the phone who knows the system & what each button does. Rather than a teacher being told "Check DMX Output 1..." - "errrrr...."Just my thoughts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niclights Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Surely if there is a cost involved for some bizarre reason then there would have to be a purchase order anyway? I see no problems here. As said the student is almost certainly the best person to be dealing with the problem and if, somehow, the manufacturer was to discriminate I would consider that an awful practice. If the school has issues with students using their initiative in this way (which I personally think should be encouraged) then should it not be up to them to enforce that? However, using email or, worse still, f***book as your first port of call in an emergency is not such a good idea unless you have no other option. Emails in my experience are mostly a slow and unreliable form of communication. That 'social networking' place is even worse... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmmaThompson Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 That 'social networking' place is even worse... I was wondering why you hadn't been joining in my tech support on the Avo FB page Nic... ;) Totally agree though, people that post with a query about hardware problems or bus errors are VERY much more likely to get a fast, accurate response from actually calling our service department. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niclights Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 I felt it was only fair to leave those for you. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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