computer Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 Hi, I am wondering whether to bother trying to create my own low-cost riggers remote. I reckon it would be pretty simple. I already have and can use many types of PIC etc and most of them could bit-bang out RS485 (DMX style) ok. I was then thinking of a matrix keypad, such as this which would then interface with the pic. To finish it off either a backlit 16x2 LCD or something and a 9v battery to give it some power. what would you guys think of that? I'd imagine a scheme of something like:#<channel num>#<intensity>* or something, and perhaps:#<channel num>##<channel num>#<intensity>*with that allowing for x through y to be selected. there is even the possibility to make it wireless, although I think that would probably create problems/expense. I would either make it battery powered, with a 5pin DMX out on it, or I could have a plugin power supply which then goes to a box with a DMX out on it through a multicore cable into the remote via an 8pin or something, so that you only need 1 wire and its not battery reliant. or a mix of both (use battery when its not recieving from the power pack unit). I'm estimating it wouldn't cost too much, probably under £50 once it has a nice case, and all the bits and bobs needed inside. would anyone here be interested in this kinda thing? I could make code/schematics available on the web, or just sell them or something. but its probably not worth persuing for just me. ideas? comments? feature requests?all comments welcomed,computer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
london sound Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 Whilst this sounds an interesting project, on a safety point I would be very reluctant to see such an item used on suspended structures.If you are keen on developing such an item and believe you have a new take on such things why not approach one of the leading manufactures. I do not really enjoy pouring cold water on enthusiasm, but in an area where safety is paramount I feel justified. Also remember pics can be using a variety of voltages (50v, 110v, 240v and 415v) depending on manufacturer. To sell such an item it would need to be CE certified and I'm sure there would be whole load of other hoops to jump through. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
computer Posted November 7, 2004 Author Share Posted November 7, 2004 but if its a low voltage DMX controller why is there high voltages? if its powered from a pp3 (9v) and puts out -5 to +5 or something as its DMX output where does the voltage come into it? when I say riggers-remote do you think I mean to operate stage automation or something? I'm just talking about a lowcost simple lighting remote for focussing, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
london sound Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 Sorry when you say riggers remote I was thinking of control for motors etc. Pics etc. are a term for local control of truss motors,(to many cross-over terms) Yes a DMX control for fixtures would be useful. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
computer Posted November 7, 2004 Author Share Posted November 7, 2004 good good <_< I have some info and diagrams on my PC I'll upload once my host has fixed stupid FTP ;) [edit]I have uploaded a document... nice graphics :Phave a look and tell me what you think http://sam.server223.com/~computer/riggersremote.html[/edit] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lightnix Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 It sounds like a neat idea, but then again I'm not a rigger. On a business level, what you might try doing is punting your idea to the rigging companies, along with a two way non-disclosure agreement (I can e-mail you one if you like) for you both to sign (to protect your idea and prevent you talking about their business). You might find that they are simply not interested, but then at least you'll find out sooner rather than later and some ideas take time to sink in anyway. On the other hand they may be really enthusiastic and give you some space, time, advice and maybe even a little money to develop the idea. They would also be able to help you design in things like LOLER compliance, etc. Bear in mind that anything you want to sell will need to meet relevant product and safety standards. Given that there are already a number of DMX-spitters out there, would some kind of interface unit be an alternative idea? You could build it into the motor racks, give it an address and then control it from something like a Microscope. Maybe you could approach the likes of Artistic License with this idea. I'm estimating it wouldn't cost too much, probably under £50 once it has a nice case, and all the bits and bobs needed inside.On what do you base that figure? Don't forget to factor in the time you spent developing and debugging it and don't under price the time it will take to build them. Also factor in the time you will have to spend supporting and marketing the product. I'm not trying to p ;) ss on you bonfire - these are all things I've had to deal with recently. Good luck with it, keep us updated with any progress <_< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peternewman Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 Okay, I may have completely the wrong end of the stick here, but I don't think so from looking at the plans, and from having heard the term before. My understanding is this is a riggers/focus remote, so that instead of having to have a board (and bored) op when focussing, you have say the LD or an assistant on the stage floor or in the seats or where ever, and then someone up a ladder doing the focusing, and it means you can control the lights without having to go back to the desk, or leave someone sitting at the desk. As far as I can see this should mean you won't need to comply with LOLER etc, just CE certification, I guess, as it has been mentioned, I have no idea if it is necessary or not. If this is the case then the plans look good, a few ideas for additions, I don't know how practical these would be:A way to view the level of a particular channel, rather than having to cycle through them all, maybe using the * keySome sort of help system, you could say print instructions on the back saying press * and # together, then the software could show you how the different commands work, or an equivalent sheet on the back of the unitA way to quickly blackout all channels, or set them to a particular value, for doing a rig check etcDon't know how practical this is, but if you could add in minus, maybe say use the * for at, # for a channel, and then ## for a range of channels, and **/*#/#* or something to remove channels, so say "#5#6#10##15**12*6 would give 5, 6, 10, 11, 13, 14, 15 @ 60%. Or in fact if * and # together could give a minus sign, # for add and * for atHow will the system integrate at the rack end, I presume a merger would be too expensive, if so what about a switch, on the rack out panel, to switch between the remote and the desk, possibly with a relay so if the power fails, or the remote is unplugged it switches to deskAlso if you are having a rackmount output box, at least put the power supply in the box, and give it an IEC input or somethingWireless would be nice as well (on which note I'm coding a wireless riggers remote for my computer desk, using a WiFi PDA, when I get round to it)I presume you are intending to be cheaper than the existing items on the market, so you actually get some people to buy it. HTH PN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
computer Posted November 8, 2004 Author Share Posted November 8, 2004 you are correct peter. Next time I'll have to explain its for lighting not rig equipment more obviously (plus, its in the lighting forum <_<)... anyway, those are all good ideas. There is the possibility of using a 4x4 keypad which would also give me 4 extra buttons, A,B,C,D which could be similar to function buttons. Ideally, I'd design my own keypad, with a OK, C, < and > buttons - but thats too expensive. Unless I can get keypads like a phone new that I can easily integrate. The parts wouldn't cost all to much, an LCD and the chip probably being the most expensive.If I were going to create a remote unit with the proprietry connection idea then I'd probably have some sort of switch, or have it so when the riggers remote gets turned on, and the "auto-on" switch is on on the rack box, then a relay would switch over the two DMX lines into the remote rather than desk, using a passthrough system. The blackout button would be good - or an option like remdim. Putting the power supply in the box would require CE certification then though? OR I could use a premade power supply, like a laptop power pack style one, and just mount that inside it with velcro or something - but still, it may require CE certs... wireless in theory could be possible with a cheap 400MHz or whatever it is chips you can buy. with a transmitter and then a reciever in a remote unit (perhaps that also remote from the rack box so you can put it on the rig). then the rigger could just send "Channel X @ 50" and then the rack box can create the actual DMX signal. I'd say it'd be possible to get a nice system working for under £100 with a rackmounted remote box or something. However adding wireless would probably add quite a bit onto the cost, I'm not sure. I'm looking into the 'competition' at the moment to see cost etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peternewman Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 There is the possibility of using a 4x4 keypad which would also give me 4 extra buttons, A,B,C,D which could be similar to function buttons. Ideally, I'd design my own keypad, with a OK, C, < and > buttons - but thats too expensive. Unless I can get keypads like a phone new that I can easily integrate.<{POST_SNAPBACK}>What about using some of these and these instead, then you could have the 10 numeric keys, OK, C, <, >, @, THRU. Although it would take longer to make, but I presume you could just wire those in with some diodes or resistors and end up with a system similar to the existing ones. If I were going to create a remote unit with the proprietry connection idea then I'd probably have some sort of switch, or have it so when the riggers remote gets turned on, and the "auto-on" switch is on on the rack box, then a relay would switch over the two DMX lines into the remote rather than desk, using a passthrough system.<{POST_SNAPBACK}>It would probably still be sensible to have a switch even with a standard XLR5, so you have an easy place to change from remote to desk, without having to muck about unplugging stuff. Putting the power supply in the box would require CE certification then though? OR I could use a premade power supply, like a laptop power pack style one, and just mount that inside it with velcro or something - but still, it may require CE certs...<{POST_SNAPBACK}>I would have thought that just putting a wall wart inside the box on an extension lead almost shouldn't be an issue, but then I've no real idea about that sort of thing. Alternatively could you get away with it by cutting out the hole for the IEC connector, and then covering it with a plate, and somehow leaving it up to the buyer to fit one if they want, without you being liable? <_< PN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 Putting the power supply in the box would require CE certification then though? OR I could use a premade power supply, like a laptop power pack style one, and just mount that inside it with velcro or something - but still, it may require CE certs...<{POST_SNAPBACK}>This is an interesting question (OK, it's not and it's very boring but...) the 'rules' are not very clear what happens when you use a component which already has a relevant CE mark. The case where a component has a CE mark but for a standard that doesn't cover the whole product is clear; you must certify the whole product. As an example, a 'naked' power supply might have a CE mark to cover the EMC side of the regualtions but it obviously cannot carry a CE mark which covers the LVD side because it needs to be fitted inside a box before it will pass. The concensus would seem to be that if you supply a power supply which has the 'right' CE approvals (and you have documentation to back that up) then you are OK. However, the moment you modify it, and that includes putting it in a box, you will need to recertify. After all, mounting it in a box might cause it to overheat; something the original manufacturer could not have forseen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
computer Posted November 8, 2004 Author Share Posted November 8, 2004 ok I understand. but something like this would be ok if I just send it along unopened? 85-1748 @ Rapid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 ok I understand. but something like this would be ok if I just send it along unopened? 85-1748 @ Rapid<{POST_SNAPBACK}>AFAIK you will be fine with something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
computer Posted November 8, 2004 Author Share Posted November 8, 2004 ok I had a thought - why couldn't I use a 1U height PC power supply (like the ones in ShuttleXPC). I have loads of them lying around at work/etc and that'd give me +12 +5 +3.3 GND -5 -12 and all sorts of things - useful for contrast on LCDs etc which require negative voltages.. I'll rewrite the ideas with the changes and put them up later. but just to get an agreement, which of the 'powersupply/DMX output' styles would you rather go for, out of the 5 listed in the link I sent above? cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 ok I had a thought - why couldn't I use a 1U height PC power supply (like the ones in ShuttleXPC). I have loads of them lying around at work/etc and that'd give me +12 +5 +3.3 GND -5 -12 and all sorts of things - useful for contrast on LCDs etc which require negative voltages..<{POST_SNAPBACK}>Are they CE marked and if yes which standards are they tested for? (hint, you're looking for numbers like EN60065, EN60950, EN55022 etc) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
computer Posted November 8, 2004 Author Share Posted November 8, 2004 They've got various marks on them. There is a CE sticker on the box it came in, and on the sticker there are the following things, possibly relevent: "Tested to comply with FCC standards, for home or office use"."CE""Enhance Electronics Co Ltd. ENP-2330""9TPWR2002""Level3 E166947""B/I OK""H/P OK""Type Approved: Bauart""cRUus" I've had a little google, and their site seems to be here... Also, working on the buttons, I've decided those keytop things would be best, so layout wise I'm thinking of: 1 2 3 On4 5 6 @7 8 9 REMDIMC 0 * ENTER what are your thoughts on that setup? it'd be similar to a strand setup methinks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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