Owning your own lighting console

[Firewood1]

Hello all,

 

I am seeking advice from industry professionals. I myself work professionally as a Production Electrician, and also design various touring productions. I only write this, so as to attract replies from people who actually know the professional theatre business. No guesses please...it could cost me a lot of money if your guesses are wrong!!

 

I have various productions in the pipeline and am forever struggling to obtain the lighting desk of my choice, so as to ensure I can always use the same programmers. This may be for budget reasons, or sometimes simply availability. I also like to programme myself on occasions, and it is never pleasant having to use an unfamiliar desk.

 

I am considering purchasing my own lighting desk, to be able to hire to my own shows. I know that designers have done this in the past, but I am curious to find out the down sides of working in this way. (I know exactly what I want to buy incidentally....this is not a request about choice of console).

 

For example, if my lighting desk were to fail, would I be liable for any costs incurred, if a show was cancelled as a result (worst case scenario!) I would purchase two consoles, so as to be able to have a backup console immediately, but is this worst case scenario something that would be insured for by me, or would it be covered by a more general insurance held by a producing company?

 

I could ramble on, but I am sure you will get the gist of the kind of issues I am seeking advice on. I'd be grateful to hear any good/bad experiences anyone may have had.

 

Thanks in advance.

[JDLX]

Yes you most probably would be liable for costs if the desk failed and it was hired to the company by yourself, you could always hire in a backup desk to ensure that the show could continue though.

 

What sort of shows are you mainly doing ?

[Firewood1]

What sort of shows are you mainly doing ?

 

Thanks for your response. I am not a huge fan of writing specific details of shows I am involved with on forums, but in my profile is a link to my webpage, where all that sort of thing is available.

 

As said in my initial post, I would be buying two consoles, so a backup would be readily available, but I am still unsure as to what the situation would be for insurance for such a thing as hiring a desk to a production company. Perhaps someone working for a major hire company might be able to help with this???

[Joe Bleasdale]

I own my own desk, and I love it. It allows so much more flexibility with shows, last minute shows don’t require you running around like a headless chicken to find a desk you want, knowing the desk inside and out is an obvious pro and if the desk is yours you can have it setup permanently the way you like. Backups are usually an essential part of you supplying control to a production, however rather than buying a whole new second desk... have a look what options your desk manufacturer does in terms of backup. You may be able to buy a desk and a replay unit or some sort of DMX node to use with the offline editor rather than a second desk.

 

A con of having your own desk is storage and transport. I have access to a UPS account so it isn’t too expensive to move the desk from A to B, however it lives in my office on the 3rd floor of my house... so considering its size, sometimes it can be a little difficult to move. Also consider long term things with the purchase of the desk. If it belongs to a hire company they have to update the software, get the desks serviced, and replace parts when needed and things like that. When you purchase your own you have to deal with it. Do you have the time/knowledge to maintain a desk or more than one maybe? Another con is payback... you could purchase 2 consoles or a console and backup unit, but would it pay for itself and earn profit quickly enough or would you end up using it on 3/4 shows per year - this also relates to console choice. Choose a console that is going to last long enough for it to pay for itself.

 

Make sure the desk is well protected too, (see my Packhorse Cases thread in the General forum :blink:)

 

I hope this helps,

[Firewood1]

Thankyou for such a comprehensive response.

 

Are you able to shed any light on the issue of insurance...not insurance against theft, but do you have insurance for losses as a result of your equipment being faulty.

 

For example, IF both your main console and backup failed, and the show was cancelled...are you covered for refunding a full house? (most unlikely I know...but it's a major factor for me...I would hate to learn this one the hard way!)

 

As for your comments about maintenance and transport...this is all very good advice. Thankyou very much.

[paulears]

Blimey Joe - are you on some kind of endorsement deal - plugging Packhorse in almost every post - I'm beginning to suspect that your hearty recommendations are more of a press release for them!

 

The question about liability is something that I took very seriously only recently - I've had my own controls for quite a few years, but I rarely risk not having a backup of some kind? I've got three at the moment - and there's always one standing by that can at least make lights come on and rescue a show. Never happened yet mid show, but if they cancel a show and refund the punters because my kit dies, I'm dead too, I suspect. If it's the venues equipment, it's somebody else's problem.

 

There are plenty of positive points. Having your own control that you are very familiar with means you know how to really work it - and that produces increases in speed, efficiency and visible results. In the old days in theatre, it didn't really matter - everybody had a 500 and it didn't have to be your own. As soon as venues started to buy alternatives, then people started to specialise in certain makes - and everyone sort of split.

 

Joe is a confirmed Compulite man, I'm not. Others love many different makes and models.

 

If you buy a control of your own - which one do you buy? There are so many, and we're all biased towards the one we know best.

 

 

What's a decent control going to cost you - decent as in maybe rider friendly, or decent in terms of what it (and you) can do?

 

£3000, £4000, more? Or do you buy something cheaper, and hope that this is as attractive and gets you work?

 

In two years I have gone from advising anyone who would listen never to consider a system based around a PC to having one myself. So far this year I've spent about four grand in total on a new lighting control including all the bits and bobs - will I get this back quickly? No. As an owner/operator I'm not interested in dry hire to strangers, although I'm happy with people I know. This means that for long periods of time when I'm doing other jobs, it will sit there and not be earning it's keep.

 

I guess I should try to sell one of the old ones now - but I probably won't (or maybe I will) - that's how sit on the fence I am.

 

Can I recommend somebody buys their own control? No I can't - but I suspect the real question is this. "I want to buy my own control, I can afford it (just) and might be able to hire it out from time to time - is this a bad idea?" This one we cannot really answer.

 

So many times people ask questions like this, and we all say - don't buy, hire when you need it - but I really think that many people (and I'm certainly one) just like to collect gear.

P

 

ps

 

Many people have in their hire contract a statement that says your liability is only the cost of the hire - so if it fails, you won't charge them, but you certainly will not be liable for the full costs of cancellation. Nobody could ever afford to hire anything out on this basis. Make sure this is detailed in full on your paperwork.

 

Have a look at other firms hire contracts and see how they deal with this kind of thing.

[Joe Bleasdale]

Blimey Joe - are you on some kind of endorsement deal - plugging Packhorse in almost every post - I'm beginning to suspect that your hearty recommendations are more of a press release for them!

 

No, not a press release. I am just a very pleased customer. I don't think 1 reccomendation thread (which is genuine) and 1 post again which is genuine & topic related constitues as plugging does it?

 

Joe is a confirmed Compulite man, I'm not. Others love many different makes and models.

 

Indeed. But this is not a thread to discuss choice of control and the reasons behind it. :blink:

 

Back on topic... I can't really help you with insurance, but if your master desk goes down AND your backup does too, I would seriously question your product choice. If you are talking about getting a product and a second as a backup, get a desk that has some sort of tracking backup option. Most larger end desks have it as a feature. Basically all you do is have Desk A (primary desk) and Desk B (backup) both connected to the same network, then on your primary desk you set this as master and then the backup desk as slave. The terminology and configuration is different on every type of console, but its all the same principle. If the master desk goes down, your backup should take over in about 100th of a second and continue to run the show until the master has rebooted. As Paul has mentioned, I am a Compulite man... I highly doubt your choice is Compulite so I couldn't really offer any specific help or guidance towards setting this system up unless you are thinking of choosing a Vector desk, then by all means I can show you tracking backup!

 

Paul touched a little on price. Could you elaborate about what products you want to invest in exactly so we have an idea of what features they have/don't have, that way we may be able to tailor advice to specifically suit your product. Some people’s idea of an expensive solution may seem large to them, but to others it could be relatively small.

 

Thanks,

[Jivemaster]

Owning your own desk means that you can actually get good enough to use most of the desk features and get the best from it. However if your design needs to cross platform to another make then the integrity of your design may suffer, also even if your design is left on your favoured deck then other operators may not be as skilled as you at repeating your design accurately.

 

Liability is a factor to consider. Yes you should have fair terms of contract - can the ALD help? You can attempt to monimise the cost of liability. you should insure the rest, though without insurance you could be taking a personal risk to the full extent of your personal assets and reputation.

 

Would buying two desks -both the same, both the same update status both fully maintained, both in proper storage, be viable? If you need a good desk can you really afford to have two. There are back up options in the form af replay units, and you could consider a computer based version of the same software running on a laptop that could travel as hand luggage.

 

If you are "struggling to obtain the lighting desk of my choice" then consider why! Is your favoured desk so unusual that work providers don't like it, will that even limit your sources of work.

[paulears]

One further point. Can you afford the desk you really want? If you buy an alternative, you will never be happy - it will always be second best!

[Jivemaster]

If, as your ALD page suggests you do designs for cruise liners then you will have to implement your design using the rig installed on that ship, which may not always have your favoured desk installled.

[Smiffy]

I have wanted my own desk for a long time. The problem is that the desk I want is an MA, an MA2 Full Size or a Light to be specific. To that end, any other console is just second fiddle, even others from the MA range, and I am not going to put myself into debt to buy a console that may or may not make its own payments.

 

It probably would pay for itself as it's a Rider Friendly console, there are not really enough in the market to go around at the moment, and a lot of people want one, but then it might not. Far too much uncertainty.

 

Likewise, I can think of many better things that I could be spending $40,000.00 on. A desk, available from most good rental houses and 'NMP' if it does decide to go tits up mid show (from a financial liability perspective at least) is not at the top of that list. It wont be either, until such time as I genuinely do have a 'spare' 40K sitting around burning a hole in my pocket.

 

From a financial liability perspective regarding failures, I haven't heard of anyone suing the Console Supplier for any losses incurred as a result of a console failure, but then I'm a little out of the loop given location. Personally though, I would suspect that it would normally be put down to being 'one of those things that happens from time to time' but then again, society is getting increasingly litigious, so it is something that might be sensible to consider insuring for, and is certainly something that you would want to be paying a lawyer for, to ensure that contractually you cannot be screwed out of house and home if it does fall apart mid gig.

 

Looking at your ALD Page, I would have though that by now you would be increasingly in a position to be having a programmer so that you can focus on the lighting rather than the programming, although having said that, I can appreciate that often it is much easier to just program a show yourself.

 

Cheers

 

Smiffy

[Jivemaster]

Look at an other situation, Your contract is to light a multi day festival event under canvas. The lighting control position has all you need for three good days excapt the canvas walls. After a saturday show your desk is stolen/vandalised beyond immediate use. If it's your desk then you have to show to your insurer that leaving it out overnight was a sensible plan, even so you have to get another desk for the next show that night If it's someone elses desk then it's someone elses problem.

[Firewood1]

Well I have a simple response to the most recent post...I keep as far away from festivals as I can, so any desk that I would own but be equally as far away. I always park my car in the garage and a lighting desk would be treated with the same love...indoors is better!

 

Thank you for all your responses. I will take them onboard. There are so many pros and cons to this topic...

 

To reply particularly to Jivemaster, I certainly would never use my own desk on a cruise ship. As you correctly say, it is always a case of working with the fixed installation and I would never want to buy a desk just to send it off around the Med for 6 months and not see it! I am thinking far more of one off productions and short tours, where the budget limits me affording my desk of choice, without compromising the rig.

 

Time will tell what I decide to do....

[tij5987]

Hi,

 

I have sent a pm

 

Tom

[Grum]

I've got my own desk(s) and I've owned my own desk (in some form or other) for nearly ten years now.

 

Most of the advantages are obvious and have already been mentioned, it's the disadvantages you really need to hear about as if you're already thinking about buying your own desk you've probably already talked yourself in to it.

 

Insurance against losses incurred as a result of equipment failure isn't really something you need to worry about as no hire company covers this sort of loss.

 

Look at an other situation, Your contract is to light a multi day festival event under canvas. The lighting control position has all you need for three good days excapt the canvas walls. After a saturday show your desk is stolen/vandalised beyond immediate use. If it's your desk then you have to show to your insurer that leaving it out overnight was a sensible plan, even so you have to get another desk for the next show that night If it's someone elses desk then it's someone elses problem.

 

This situation is not as bad as it sounds, you hire the desk to your client and they take on the responsibility just as they would any other item on hire from any other hire company. If the above situation occurred with someone else's desk then the hirer would be liable for the cost of hire until the desk had been either repaired or replaced (at no cost to the hire company). Another way of looking at the above situation is this: If you are working on a show where you left hire equipment in conditions that put it at risk of damage from either the elements or Vandals could your client reasonably expect you to cover any costs they incurred from such damage? The answer, of course, is if you're a sub contractor then yes they can hold you accountable and you can be sure they'll try.

 

A good example would be what happened to my desk last year. 3 shows in to a 5 week tour a lovely member of the audience threw a pint at my desk, thankfully I was able to finish the show but only because it was during the last song. The next day I ordered a touchscreen to be delivered to the next venue to replace the damaged one. Chamsys were great and by show 5 I had my desk back to normal. All costs were passed on to my client who should have passed them on to the promoter for failing to provide a safe environment for our equipment. From that gig the TM made sure that we had waterproofing to cover the whole FOH position if another pint had hit the desk because I had failed to cover it correctly then the cost for any damage would have been my responsibility.

 

If you can afford the desk you want then buy it. If you can afford a back up even better. You won't be dissapointed.

 

Oh, one other disadvantage to owning your own desk. You will very quickly forget how to use any other desk but your own. This is fine all the while you're using your desk but a real PITA when you are forced to use something else that just won't do what your desk does.