Best overstage relay monitor Microphone?

[Pattern123]

We are just having a new control booth constructed at our School and the architects in their infinate wisdom have made it 'completely sound proof' (they even complained when I asked for a mousehole to be cut to allow cable runs that it would compromise the soundproof barrier! But that's another story)

 

In order to hear what's going on in the control room we will therefore need some monitor and an overstage Mic of some kind to relay the sound. Does anyone have any suggestions as to a relatively inexpensive condenser with a broad pickup pattern? I was thinking maybe Rode NT1, but it's a bit big and clumsy for the job. I believe I've also seen Audio Technica AT8004's and MB4K's being used in various venues, but I'd be grateful for examples that work well, it is in a large 1920's open school hall, though I would suspend it behind the border over the stage at approx 5M above the stage.

[bruce]

The ideal solution, of course, would be to get the window taken out, or at least make it one that opens.

 

But if you must go down the mic/monitors route, surely the best place for the mic is at the back of the auditorium - you want to be able to hear what it sounds like to the audience, not above the stage!

[james.sealey]

We are just having a new control booth constructed at our School and the architects in their infinate wisdom have made it 'completely sound proof' (they even complained when I asked for a mousehole to be cut to allow cable runs that it would compromise the soundproof barrier! But that's another story)

 

What is it with architects and school halls and form taking a precedent over function? My old high school had a newly built school hall with possibly the worst acoustics I have ever heard in my life, and then A.N.Other sound company came in and installed one (yes one) random 15" cab hanging from the centre of the ceiling, charged a ridiculous amount, and called it a PA system...

 

As for recommendations for sorting some sort of show relay to the control booth, get down to B & Q buy yourself some gloves, goggles and a chuffing big sledgehammer....

 

[EDIT: Bruce beat me to it with a slightly more subtle suggestion]

[Pattern123]

Just to make clear, this is for theatre use, not for live sound mixing, so it's really to hear what's going on on-stage, in terms of dialogue etc, not for Bands etc, there is a balcony outside the control room which we will use for live mixing when required. Yes, in some ways a shotgun mic/mics on that balcony might be preferable, but it would probably just cost too much right now.

[pisquee]

So the control room is for lighting, video etc, and the sound desk is not in the control room at all?

[GreatBigHippy]

They did this to us as well.. (the original plan didn't even HAVE a booth)

My solution was a plate mic against the outside of the booth above the last row of the audience. This then runs to a set of £30 behringer powered monitor speakers. Works perfectly fine for us, you just have to make sure you calibrate the volume properly so that it is roughly the same as the audience levels.

[Pattern123]

Pisquee, the sound desk will live in the control room for Plays & Theatre, and migrate to the balcony for Tech's & Live Sound. This is not unusual in Theatres, I have worked in several which operated this way. Obviously for Plays etc, the sound levels are preset & plotted, so we only need to hear the performers for cues and some playback in the auditorium to confirm that the cue is playing out. We also need to hear people talking to us onstage etc. If I need more monitor or sound reinforcement for a specific show I can organise that seperately.

 

Hippy, can you give me a make & model for your Boundary Mic? I had considered a boundary, but doesn't it pick up a lot of muttering & sweet wrappers in audience?

[paulears]

Sound desks that live in control rooms, even for plays, are not unusual in theatres that don't have much of a clue - but totally stupid and horrible to work in, even for a play with no mics and just a few sound effects. A simple doorbell ring or birds tweeting in the background needs the op to have the best seat in the house to balance things properly. Many venues have a near optimum position, others have compromised ones - off to one side, under a balcony - that kind of thing, but shut away in a sound proof room is the worst of the bunch.

 

A mono boundary mic on a suitable surface works ok. The position is pretty important. However, stereo could be better - so maybe a pair in x/y format could work better, maybe flown? Linked to two speakers, at least you'd be able to spot one channel going down during the show?

 

Maybe, if the control room is multi-purpose, then you need a small mixer so you can have a stage overhead, a float mic on the front and a stereo pair - then you can hear certain things better.

 

This is perfectly good enough for LX, and even stage management - for sound, it's still dreadful!

 

The window needs to open. Next time the teacher is on stage and shouts at you, you'll be able to say "sorry, can't hear you".

 

Last bit - if it's a soundproof room, they have put an alarm sounder in, haven't they?

[Pattern123]

OK, thanks for the lecture, but the question was, and remains, does anyone have any recommendations on a specific single microphone for this application?

[TomHoward]

To answer your question, we use an M201, because the system is tied into an Inter-M relay mixer that doesn't have phantom power, and the M201 was the best dynamic I could find. The need (or lack of need) for Phantom might be something worth considering if you haven't planned the entire signal chain.

[Bobbsy]

If you DO have a source of phantom power, I prefer to use a small diaphram cardioid condensor, located on the first FOH lighting bar, angled for stage coverage (i.e. NOT pointing straight down). Even if you move the sound control area out where it SHOULD be (many, including me, would say "MUST" be) you'll still need a show relay mic for the poor sods stuck in the control room, probably for back stage, and possibly for an assisted hearing loop as well. You may as well do it properly.

 

However, please don't be dismissive of those who lecture on the need for a better sound position or at least an opening window. Your differentiation of "plays and theatre" from "live sound" shows a deep lack of understanding of the issues--and even mixing a few sound effects from a sound proof room is difficult to get consistently right. Your user name suggest you do a lot of lighting--how'd you like it if we took away your window and insisted you did "plays and theatre" using a black and white camera and video monitor as your only way of seeing the stage. That's what you're asking the poor sound guy to cope with.

 

Put in the show relay mic...but keep demanding an opening window too.

 

Bob

[Pattern123]

Thanks Tom, the M201 is a good suggestion, and one I'd forgotten about, though phantom's not a problem, I will run it through the desk.

 

Bob, I just get very bored with people who meander at length off the topic and try to teach me how to suck eggs in the process. I have worked professionally in the industry for 22 years, and started out mixing Theatrical sound in six-weekly rep on two reel-to-reel TEAC's and a 4 channel desk in a sealed control box with no monitor other than a 110v backstage relay speaker with a 'realistic' dynamic mic in the auditorium - whilst controlling the lighting from a 3-preset 36 channel manual green ginger desk situated BEHIND me - so I'm pretty well aware of the issues.

 

However, the reality is that going into a project which is almost at completion as a new technician and demanding that the windows which are already made and sitting in the hall be changed and telling them they've got it all wrong isn't exactly the tact and diplomacy which will endear me to my new employers. Since I am also 'the sound guy' I will live with it.

[bruce]

However, the reality is that going into a project which is almost at completion as a new technician and demanding that the windows which are already made and sitting in the hall be changed and telling them they've got it all wrong isn't exactly the tact and diplomacy which will endear me to my new employers.

 

On the other hand, remember that you are being employed as the "expert". They may not realise the deficiencies of the setup. You do. If the project is incomplete, then there's still an opportunity to fix it properly. but as soon as it's signed off, then it ceases to be the builder/architect/installer's responsibility. And becomes much more expensive to fix.

 

If you know that there's a fundamental problem, and do not make them aware, and the project is signed off as "acceptable", there's an argument that you are being negligent...

 

Tell them, in a diplomatic way.

 

Edit: we've been here before, many times. One of the fundamental problems we hit is that the architect (who knows little about theatre design) may have labelled the control room as "projection box". It then gets passed to the architectural technician, who looks up the rules for "projection boxes", which were written with celluloid film in mind. The rules say "sealed room, with half hour fire barrier", or something like that, to keep building control happy.

 

Or maybe it was labelled "sound booth", and the architect dug out his plans for a recording studio....

 

 

There's a new school close to me. It was designed with a double-glazed window between the control room and the auditorium. I protested at the design stage. They "took my comments on board" but no changes were made.

 

The first time they ran an event there, the (untrained) sound ops couldn't hear what was happening in the auditorium. They couldn't judge the levels. They didn't know it was too loud. They couldn't hear the clipping.

 

Tannoy V12s are about 600 quid each. They managed to blow 3 out of the 4 that night, just because they couldn't hear.

 

Shortly afterwards, the window was removed.

 

Another edit: Add up the cost of a decent microphone or two, a pair of speakers, amp, mixer, cabling. Several hundred pounds. The cost of removing the glass will be far less. So you can use the "wouldn't it be cheaper to" argument to get the better solution.

[dbuckley]

OK, thanks for the lecture, but the question was, and remains, does anyone have any recommendations on a specific single microphone for this application?

I have a tangential suggestion - the PCC160. For a stage relay feed I just bung one in the middle of the stage. I know its not flown, but it does work very well, cuts out almost all audience noise, and is even usable with a pit band if they're at reasonable levels.

[Lamplighter]

I have a tangential suggestion - the PCC160.

Try CPC MP33852 if you are going down this route. They are £29.50 + VAT and do the job well and are very robust. I have tried A-B testing against a PCC 160 and couldn't notice the difference.

Brian