peter the butcher Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Hi People, this is my first post first post on this forum, having just joined.I am recording a friends organ concert, in Durham Cathedral at the end of october, that my father has organized. My question is what mic/mics would you consider? I have a Zoom H2, on which I have recorded a few organs with, but as the mics are cardoid @90 degrees, I am loosing the bass response, and thats a pre requisite with organs. A friend has a pair of really ancient (Tandy) PZM's, bought in the 80's, and they are really good (well to my old ears) Would a stereo mic for example or a pair of omni's be better, or hire a stereo ribbon, or pair of AKG 414's and set them as a pair of fig 8's.ThanksPeter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donald463 Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Sennheiser MKH range in MS stereo allows adjustment of stereo width after recording and the quality is unquestionable. Siting mics will be dependant on position of organ although have had success with mics at top of nave in other cathedrals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shez Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Omnis will get you lower than any other polar pattern, but only if they're true omnis, not switchable pattern mics. I've used Sennheiser MKH and Schoeps in the past with good results on orchestral / choir / organ concerts. For best of both worlds, try M/S with an MKH20 omni as the M mic. You'll likely have to get closer to get the same sort of sound as a cardioid in terms of ambience but you'll get the bass extension and you can still adjust the stereo width in post, as Donald says. I'd probably leave the tandy mics at home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jivemaster Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Can you actually go and listen to the organ being played and move and listen from other places, can you also do some trial recordings and listen carefully prior to the actual concert. You need to get a good recording of the organ with the right amount of the right ambience for the particular building. You also need to eliminate extraneous noise from audience and passing trafic etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 The stereo mic linked to above would indeed be a useful one to try, although Shez won't like it as it uses back to back capsules to approximate omni directional pickup pattern. I've got some of these on order - there are two factories producing these at the moment, and they're identical spec wise and visually. I've got some of both on order for a few jobs coming up, and I'll probably sell the remainder once I've done. While agreeing with shez that proper pressure operated microphones do sound the smoothest, I personally find the difference small enough to not worry too much about - and the versatility of a switchable pattern mic for me is worth the small sonic difference. The main reason for liking these stacked microphones is that you can use them as a coincident pair, and vary the angle easily, or as an m/s setup. For organs, depending on the acoustics, I quite like the sound of spaced omnis - especially when the organ is a larger one. The longer ranks often get placed in very off centre positions, so pedal notes can be very difficult. The low frequencies get away with being to one side because bass localisation with the longer pipes is much more difficult for the brain, so having a spaced pair can mean one is closer to the pipes, adding a little solidity and clarity due to the ratio of direct and reflected sounds. Single point techniques on organ can produce very conflicting imaging with multiple paths to the microphone. Hole in the middle effects in larger churches or cathedrals seem much less than spaced mics in smaller spaces. As soon as the ones on order turn up, I'll be attempting some tests - if Pete can wait that long, I might be able to loan him one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lightsource Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 PM sent. A refressing change, as we're in Manchester most of this month Back to the BR: Suprisingly, no one has asked anything about the recording media....The OP did state he was "Recording a friends organ concert". So, how many channels are available? Do you have stereo only, or multitrack? if so, how many tracks. I think the simple question here, would be, how are you recording this job, Without this information, I don't think anyone can give you an accurate reply. At very least, an idea of how many recording channels you have available (or the details of the recording device you're using)are a basic minimun to give you an accurate reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter the butcher Posted September 18, 2009 Author Share Posted September 18, 2009 Can you actually go and listen to the organ being played and move and listen from other places, can you also do some trial recordings and listen carefully prior to the actual concert. You need to get a good recording of the organ with the right amount of the right ambience for the particular building. You also need to eliminate extraneous noise from audience and passing trafic etc. have recorded here a few times, so as to the mic placement, I have one of two spots. The best thing is that the audience will be made up of about 200 "ultra quiet" Freemasons, and as last year, they will all be in the nave, so I have the choir all to myself, to set up in. Getting a extra tall stand of the "Cathedral" variety will be on the cards, as flying 2 mics will not be an option, and the recording will be staight to stereo, with very little editing, just the triming of the tracks and NO eq. Recording in the choir is what most would say is close, but there is healthy ambience here that seems to have the sound focused and does not just produce a big wash of sound. Wish I had a Soundfield, and then could spend plenty of time just mucking around after the event.As it is, this recording will be for my own ears and will be in a few years to come, a wee bit of history. Peter A concurrent post has been automatically merged from this point on. PM sent. A refressing change, as we're in Manchester most of this month Back to the BR: Suprisingly, no one has asked anything about the recording media....The OP did state he was "Recording a friends organ concert". So, how many channels are available? Do you have stereo only, or multitrack? if so, how many tracks. I think the simple question here, would be, how are you recording this job, Without this information, I don't think anyone can give you an accurate reply. At very least, an idea of how many recording channels you have available (or the details of the recording device you're using)are a basic minimun to give you an accurate reply. Hi Lightsource,forgot to mention, it will be a straight to stereo thing, with a brand new, unused tascam DAP1 as it has XLR inputs and 48v phantom power. The other thing would be a larger version of the zoom, or some other SD card recorder with built in XLR's and phantam, like the newish Tascam model. peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dknoise Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 What's your mic budget like? either to buy or to hire? As suggested above middle and side technique will give you some control over the direct sound to room ambience balance which may be useful in such a reverberant space. You can set up a normal mixer to encode it to stereo on the way down. You can do this with a pair of AKG414's or Neuman U87's anything with a switchable polar pattern. I would suggest getting a pair of headphones or some monitoring that you are familiar with and having a good listen to the mic before hitting record to make sure you've made the best of things in terms of placement. I wouldn't be against using some subtle EQ after the event to sweeten things (the purists will never know :-)) if needed. If you don't fancy MS then there are obviously no shortage of mic choices it depends on your budget. My 2p. Regards Dom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_korman Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 Wish I had a Soundfield, and then could spend plenty of time just mucking around after the event.As it is, this recording will be for my own ears and will be in a few years to come, a wee bit of history. So hire one! only £25 /day Richmond Film Services or £40/day depending on the model Calrec SF Mk IV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter the butcher Posted October 8, 2009 Author Share Posted October 8, 2009 I have decided on using a pair of Rode NT5's with omni caps. A friend was going to bring his to "try" out, but the sat evening the concert is on, he has to go "down south" to a pre arranged day of sailing, so if anyone knows where I can hire a couple of these highly recomended mics from, I would be eternally gratefull Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 The NT5s are nice mics, but cardioids? I've got some similar sized ones that have interchangable capsules, and these have an omni included.http://www.limelight.org.uk/wpimages/wp8e05f13e_0f.jpgThe trouble with small size omnis is that they do have reduced sensitivity at the rear, simply because the body and XLR get in the way. Personally, I don't have a problem with the omni pattern on switchable pattern mics, there are some technical issues with using two elements to get an omni pattern, but in practice, it's a small difference. If you really get stuck, I'll loan you a pair of large diaphragm omnis I use - pm me if you can't get sorted out, and I'll post them to you. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pisquee Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 The Sage Gateshead has a Soundfield mic they may be able to hire you (doesn't get used that often) is isn't that far from Durham... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Siddons Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 There is a soundfield mic on ebay if you've got a spare £1800 link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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