rooftop Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Our FOH LX bars are about 3 metres high and fixed solidly to the concrete roof. Access is from the balcony via a single 12-rung(?) ladder. We need to replace the ladder (failed the inspection as the feet were failing and council policy says destroy it not repair it). One of the techs is keen on having a new ladder with some kind of hook on top so that it can hook over the LX bar to aid stability. The only ladder hooks I can find when googling are for working on house roofs. Am I missing something; is there a theatrical "hook" that fits snugly over scaff bar whilst keeping the desired ladder angle? I guess something like an inverted G-Clamp without the butterfly bolt would be nearly what we need... Before anyone asks, the rigging element is pretty minimal as the techs tend to stick to the same LX rig apart from the odd special. It's just the focussing, gels and gobos that changes per event. Edit: FOH not FOX ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadyn.williams Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 One of the theatres I work at has a 'customised' small set of Zarges that has a large rated hookclamp attached to an added brace above the final rung which then hooks over the bar instead of leaning the ladder on it - the forward weight of the ladder is taken by the brace and the G clamp, of course most of the weight on a ladder remains downwards anyway. I don't actually know who made the modification but as all their access equipment is tested as per regs they must have got away with it somehow! I would have thought though that this went along the lines 0f modification to manufactures original specification of use, which I thought you couldn't do? A fall arrest harness still has to be used when working on from the ladder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ynot Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Sorry, guys, but you do NOT need hooks on a ladder to make it safe to work from. A properly maintained (or new) semi-commercial extension ladder should be fine for the job. Assuming that a) you can get the correct angle for climbing ladders and b) you have a colleague properly foot the base etc and (of course) c) the point - ie bar - on which you're resting is sufficient to hold th weight exerted onto it by the ladder plus body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benash Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 Sorry, guys, but you do NOT need hooks on a ladder to make it safe to work from. But it would still be good to have. In my experience the safest ladder is one that is secured top and bottom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ynot Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 Sorry, guys, but you do NOT need hooks on a ladder to make it safe to work from. But it would still be good to have. In my experience the safest ladder is one that is secured top and bottom. Sorry, but have to disagree.Hooks at the top of a ladder can potentially give a false sense of security if misused.The key safety factors are simple. Learn how to use a standard ladder properly and safely and you won't go far wrong. I've been climbing ladders for over 30 years and the ONLY set that have been secured in any way at the top are those which lean against telegraph poles - and for good reason.Ladders onto grid bars do NOT really benefit from hooks in my experience, and can often be more of a pain in the ass than a benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benash Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 Sorry, but have to disagree.Hooks at the top of a ladder can potentially give a false sense of security if misused.The key safety factors are simple. Learn how to use a standard ladder properly and safely and you won't go far wrong. I've been climbing ladders for over 30 years and the ONLY set that have been secured in any way at the top are those which lean against telegraph poles - and for good reason.Ladders onto grid bars do NOT really benefit from hooks in my experience, and can often be more of a pain in the ass than a benefit. I don't think the argument that they are bad because they give a false sense of security is fair. It's like saying that you shouldn't wear a fall arrest harness when working at heights because it gives a false sense of security and will result in people over-reaching. All the industrial safety courses that I have done say that ladders should always be secured at the top. If you can do that without having to climb an unsecured ladder, all the better. As for the comment that they are a pain in the ass; I can't really argue with that as it's a matter of personal taste. I find that having to pull remove the toaster's power cord from the wall socket before I stick a knife in it to get out the stuck crumpet to be a pain in the ass but at the end of the day I still do it... ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larrisbarris Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 Ladders should always be secured if possible. Hooks is not the answer. Maybe for a roofer it is a good idea as it hangs on a gutter. If you have a scaff bar buy a normal ladder and go to your local scaff firm who will provide all proper scaff ladder clips to secure the ladder. Jobs a good un for around 10 quid - done the right way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 I must admit that my gut reaction is that a ladder that can not slide out when weighted must be safer than a ladder that could, if the footers are less than vigilant - and as we live in the real world, footers are not all on the ball. How many times have you been up a ladder, looked down and seen the footer with one lazy leg on the rung, looking the other way, or even texting. On one occasion I remember being up a very tall ladder, looking down and seeing the person at the bottom had wandered off! I cannot see any way a ladder that is essentially captive one weight is on it, can in any sense be less safe than a free one with footer? It has always been good practice to top secure a ladder if that is possible, for added security. A rigid bar, fixed to a solid support would make, in my humble opinion, an excellent structure to hook on to. I'm no doubt wrong, as this is an idea that should have been taken up by manufacturers if it was that good. Dragon's Den anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddison Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 I think, Rooftop, that you want something like http://www.ullrich.co.nz/castings/images/UC1927_scaffold_ladder_hook.jpg The g clamp and bolt idea isn't much use as you would need to climb the ladder to fasten it. I'm with Paul, especially as a big lad. When I am the top of a leaning ladder, I am very aware of the massive turning potential I have. Something that keeps the ladder from ever being able to shoot away from under me is a plus with me. Thats not to say that I either:a) can't set up a leant ladder properly. (1 in 4, 3 points of contact etc)b) am reckless/careless/any less respectful of gravity when I am a hooked ladder. Whilst this might not carry all that much weight; I believe the current HSE guidelines on ladder use suggest fastening the ladder to the work item as the most preferable way to ensure ladder stability, following by bracing it (eg. against a wall) with footing being a final resort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbuckley Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 Sounds like a cracking idea, but... Our FOH LX bars are about 3 metres high and fixed solidly to the concrete roof.I would want "solidly" qualified before hanging people off the bar, which is what is effectively happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadyn.williams Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 I think hooks and securing remain situation dependant really. I have no problem up a ladder that is leant off againt a bar if it extents a decent proportion over the bar.The bar that I was talking about in my first place is fixed directly to the ceiling, so there is a standoff of a couple of inches in order to hook clamps under. This means the ladder could only extend a little way on/over the bar it is resting on with a small margin of error for any movement/flex in the ladder.As it is a G Clamp with the bolt removed it can be attached from the ground - you extent the ladder and hook it over, then position the feet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 A fall arrest harness still has to be used when working on from the ladder.Erm, why?What do you attach it to?How do you rescue someone who is dangling? Fall Arrest and mobile ladders generally don't go together very well, because you can't clip on until you're up the ladder, and you'll have to unclip to descend. Fixed descenders to clip into are good, but obviously only of use at that specific location. This is probably fine for pros ladders, but not much use elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seano Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 A fall arrest harness still has to be used when working on from the ladder. I'm mildly intrigued by this. What method of fall arrest is used in conjunction with the harness?Also, do you know whether there's a rescue plan, and if so what it says? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stagemanagement Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 A fall arrest harness still has to be used when working on from the ladder. I'm mildly intrigued by this. What method of fall arrest is used in conjunction with the harness?Also, do you know whether there's a rescue plan, and if so what it says? I'm guessing the arrest lanyard won't account for the discrepancies in height between falling to the circle (where the ladder is sited) and falling to the stalls (below the bar if the ladder is at an incline from the circle)!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seano Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 I'm guessing the arrest lanyard ...I wasn't assuming that there is a lanyard. ;)If the answer is that they're using a fall arrest lanyard to attach themselves to the bar when they get there, its the same situation as already discussed in this thread. (And I already posted my thoughts on the subject there.) But I did wonder if perhaps they'd come up with something else, hence my question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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