Grand Piano Mic - With Big Band

[djmartin999]

So, let me describe the situation as it may help.

 

I am a past pupil from a high school in Essex, UK, and each year they hold a Jazz Night in the school hall. I am one of the technicians who set everything up and usually focus on sound. Ive been doing it since 2005, and each year we've got it a bit better sounding (with less feedback than the year before).

 

Basically we've got a full size concert Boston Steinway piano, new for 2006. It has to compete with a whole big band, and usually it is only the piano out of the whole band which provides us with some lovely low end feedback each year. As I've said, this year (2009) we achieved virtually no feedback but I still wasnt able to turn it up as much as I would have liked to.

 

This year we used an Audio Technica boundary mic on the soundboard approximately under middle C 2 feet from the hammers, and a Sennheiser E845 about 1 cm from the hammers on a mic stand with the lid closed as far as it could go (I realise that this is possibly not the best mic to use, but it gave us a rhythmic punchy sound which is what we are going for seeing as though its jazz / rock music that gets played).

 

For piano foldback, we used an RCF Art 322A on its side. It worked pretty well.

 

My question is, how can I improve it again (and if possible, bear in mind the budget is tight, the school provides us will less than £200 each time we put it on and usually we end up spending our own money on gear we wouldnt use any other time of the year other than this event, which we do for love :)

 

For pictures of this years event (so you can gauge the size of the hall), please visit

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?...;albumId=967744

 

 

The next concert isn't til July 2010 so we have plenty of time,

 

Many thanks for your help people

[jonathanhill]

When I used to do this sort of thing, on a Steinway Model D, I used to use 2 AKG 451's (with CK1 heads I think). One was aimed at the bass strings and one was aimed at the treble strings. The AKG's were the only condensers that we had.

 

It would be interesting to know if people deem this as ok. I would sumise that use of the boundary mic may have been the cause of your glorious feedback, natures way of telling you something is too loud...

[strandgsx]

Or a helpinstill piano pickup.

[dougjm]

never rule out the 57/58 in the sound hole, often a good compliment to 2 c414s in the best of situations.

 

personaly I use accusound strips on the underside of the piano soundboard in conjunction with mics or as a stand alone solution with the lid closed.

 

you could always hire some dpa 4061 mics with the magnetic holders and shut the lid.

 

or beta 91s work well in there too.

 

really depends what you want to buy/hire and if you want to use stuff for other gigs through the rest of the year

[paulears]

If you need volume, then I'd second a decent pair of slim condensers, positioned as Johnathan posted. The boundary mic on the lid works rather well for recordings, but doesn't help gain before feedback for a punchy sound.

 

The other thing is that each brand and even model of piano responds very differently. I've discovered with things like Yamahas, especially C3s is a mic under the soundboard, facing up, just behind the pedal braces works well. Best results I had are with a hyper-cardioid - I used a Beyer 201. The same position on a Bechstein was simply awful! Gain, and then musical eq work for me for jobs where the piano is part of the rhythm section.

[SoLiEn]

I also use Accusound underneath and a condenser or two on the top to completely capture the sound, as paulears states, they all behave differently, and paul, on a C3 have you ever used a Beta91? I found the results most pleasing!!

[djmartin999]

I think I've found the next option - the dual condenser option. I probably should have mentioned before that the school has a couple of AKG C451B's knocking around that we dont use for this event. They also have some high quality U853A audio technica hanging mics which we don't usually use at jazz night, maybe I could try at least one of those too.

 

Thank you everyone for your help and suggestions!

 

P.s. the helpinstill piano pickup looks very interesting! if it wasnt $550 I would consider a purchase!

[Rob_Beech]

The approach I normally take is a Beta91 in the base and a pair of c414 positioned suitably (depending on the size and style of sound that needs to be dominant). Being an ex concert pianist and ex session pianist / keys player anything less to me is both criminal and immoral.

 

However, there of course ARE other options which can achieve perfectly good results.

 

Where are you based? still in Essex I gather, but where abouts?

[Solstace]

For what it's worth, my current place of employment probably has similar issues and needs as described by the OP. Our Steinway (not sure what model) seems to respond best with two C451's - either aimed at low/high strings, or opposing one another on a T-bar, creating a figure-8 pickup, suspended an inch or two above the hammers. Just above Middle C works best for us.

 

In the latter config with the lids shut as tight as they'll go (allowing a stand boom to pass under the main lid), the sound sums well to mono, or just as well routing high to one side and low to the other in a stereo mix. Playing with polarity reversal on one or both mics has a subtle effect on overall sound, but can help with some LF feedback issues if I encounter them - which is quite often since the piano usually sits in the body of the venue right under the main right Bose 802 stack!

[StevieR]

Where level/feedback is a problem we use these transducers - Schertler DYN-GP Transducer. They are no replacement for a good pair of large diaphragm condensers but give you the level if required.

 

Steve

[Bobbsy]

At the risk of being deemed immoral by Rob, I'm another advocate of the 2 SD condenser method. You have to play a bit with placement but it's always worked well for me. I generally use the battered 451s from my mic box but, if you want economy, I've also done it with a pair of SE1a mics and was pleasantly pleased with the results.

 

In a totally different direction, I opped a show designed by somebody else a couple of months back, and he miked the grand in the pit with a single Shure VP88, an MS Stereo mic designed more for location recording. I was very impressed with the sound (even on a closed piano in a noisy pit) and it's a technique I want to play with more in the future.

 

Bob

 

Edited to add a LINK TO THE VP88 SPEC.

[Stan Hope-Streeter]

<Or a helpinstill piano pickup>

 

I don't know about the latest version, but the older ones were extremely fiddly to set up. They are like a set of guitar pickups that you suspend over the strings from a bar. Consequently the sound is more "electronic" than "acoustic" and it's necessary to add a mic as well. The big advantage was that you could get plenty of GBF, and masses of level in the player's wedge on a loud stage. In this case the mic didn't go to monitors but was blended with the pickup to improve the FOH sound. We used them a lot in the late 70's / early 80's before the C-tapes became available.

 

I found the C-tape (c-ducer) stick-on piezo pickups much easier to use but didn't give quite so much GBF. A pair of these carefully positioned, plus a 414 over the strings, works well.

 

As for the OP, the existing pair of 451's should do the job nicely. Positioning is critical and for best GBF the console strip needs to have parametric EQ so you can notch out the first couple of rings.

 

The best results I've had, on orchestral shows, have been with a pair of Schoeps or B&K SDC's. Not cheap though!

[mervaka]

In a totally different direction, I opped a show designed by somebody else a couple of months back, and he miked the grand in the pit with a single Shure VP88, an MS Stereo mic designed more for location recording. I was very impressed with the sound (even on a closed piano in a noisy pit) and it's a technique I want to play with more in the future.

 

for MS techniques, I carry a special XLR Y-tail with one female to two male ends, with one of the males phase reversed and lifted on pin 1. who needs a special MS matrix, eh? :)