Licking Curtains??

[Ben Lawrance]

A friend of mine once told me that when the curtains have been flame checked, they taste salty when licked. He said he always checks them by licking them.

Since then (2 years ago) I have always used his theory (it's true) but when talking to some other technician guys about it, they just laughed, and couldn't stop laughing.

 

Does anyone else use this method to check if things have been flame checked?

[Rob]

Yeah - You're not too far off the mark. Fire-proofing is often done with a salt solution, Class 1 timber for instance is fire-proofed by impregnating it in this way. You'll often notice salt residue on sheets of Class 1 ply (Depending on how long it has been sitting around the timber yard :) )

 

I've often seen this done to test fabrics, but you might try licking your finger, touching the material and then tasting it - You probably won't get laughed at as much as if you climb the zarges and start snogging the Tabs! :huh:

[Thirdtap]

No don't lick those curtains they are grannies curtains!!!

[Dave]

Ben,

 

I too have come across (and used) this test. I first read about it somewhere (no idea where). I'm not sure I would describe the taste as salty though - it's sort of bitter (at least the things I've licked were :) ).

 

I wouldn't regard it as scientific. Durably or inherently flame retardent materials are unlikely to have a taste, and just because you can taste something is not a guarantee that (1) all the material has been treated or (2) the concentration of fireproofers in the fabric is sufficient to prevent combustion.

 

But if a nice amateur group (!!) comes into your venue and says their drapes have been sprayed, you could use this to check that they're not lying. In other circumstances you might just want to use a blowlamp anyway (like with Bryson's favourites).

 

Dave.

[Guest Stuart B]

Its the fag lighter every time for me, since 1) I was told that one way to fool the fireman is to pee on the tabs, since that and fireproofing supposedly smells the same and 2) I saw a safety data sheet for boric acid (used in some fireproofing solutions, I think) that said that it can (in sufficient quantity of course) make yer men's bits shrivel up & drop off (to all intents and purposes).

 

Also the spray bottle doesn't bring on quite that same look of panic in the owner/hirer of the curtains as the fag lighter and the manic grin does.

[robloxley]

If you've been spraying flamecheck (or whatever) then inadvertantly lick your fingers, you'll find it tastes really bitter and nasty. So, you could concievably do the 'snog-test'. However, you probably want to test it in a more realistic way using a lighter, unless you have taste buds that can measure quantitatively if the cloth's been properly flameproofed.

 

Maybe Joel's et al should add an extra test-patch to the back of all the cloths they send out, for ease of flame-testing by recieving venues! :)

[James C]

Without wishing to worry anybody...I thought the Flamecheck solution was believed to be carcinogenic, hence the reluctance to apply it to costumes :)

Anyone else come across this?

[Guest lightnix]

But if a nice amateur group (!!) comes into your venue and says their drapes have been sprayed, you could use this to check that they're not lying.

 

I always thought that the standard way of testing fireproofing was the Flame Test, as used by fire officers across the land. Take you lighter, ignite, hold to test material for 10 secs. If there is even the smallest flame sustained after that, then out it goes, end of story.

 

Don't forget to have an extinguisher handy, just in case the nice amateurs are trying to pull the wool over your eyes (as if they would :huh: ) Also don't forget to test a "small discrete area", rather than the middle of something :)

[owen_mcauley]

Without wishing to worry anybody...I thought the Flamecheck solution was believed to be carcinogenic, hence the reluctance to apply it to costumes

 

 

Not sure about this, correct me if I am wrong. The HSE has strict guidlines on the use of carcinogenics, and would not allow us to use this substance if it was.

 

My impression was that used in a well ventillated area it was perfectly ok.

Hence, couldn't be a carcinogenic substance.

Been a long time since anyone has supplied me with the COSHH data for it.

 

Please let me know if I am wrong and I will stop using it.

 

Owen

[Thirdtap]

'Lo

The only side effects I have seen from spraying flame check/bar is irratation of the nose and mouth. A tech friend said that she sprayed in an enclosed space and coughed up a load of water later on that day.

The other was from a nice amdram lady was wanting to spray net curtains. So I set up a ladder up outside in the yard for her for hanging up the curtains. It was a nice sunny day and not a sign of rain. 20 minutes later I find her in the workshop still squirting at the curtains. She had moved inside because the sun was hurting her eyes!!! I mentioned about use of the spray in a well ventilated area and would she like a mask to wear inside. The offer was declined because she had just set her hair for the dress rehearsal that evening. Later on she was complaining of a sore nose and a itchy mouth. Needless to say the show went on and I was maverlous.

 

A sunny Friday afternoon :)!!!!!

B)

[Dave]

There are various chemicals used in fireproofers - even the different types of FlameBar have different ingredients.

 

I am sure that none of them are carcinogenic. They would have to be labelled as such if they were, and lots of H&S measures would be needed when using them.

 

In addition, I think they are all described as non-toxic.

 

They can cause irritation to skin (as can many other substances including washing powder), so accepted practice is that costumes do not need to be treated.

[Ben...]

Well we sometimes use plant misters to apply flamebar except that once, during a dress rehearsal, the sprayer was discovered to have dissapeared from it's shelf in the paint (ahem, sorry, COSHH) store... the mystery was solved when we noticed one of the actresses wondering around happily dampening her hair with the (clearly labelled) PE6 flamebar. Guess she was lucky it wasn't N5.

 

The really worrying story I heard was about an actor managing to drink some (not in our venue, I hasten to add.) I know they survived with no ill effects, but I don't know the details.

 

Anyway, what I meant to say was that according to the hazard sheets I've got none of the stuff we use is known to be carcinogenic, but it's an organic solvent and you probably don't want it inside you (ammonia compounds and suchlike.)

 

Found on the web;

http://www.bollom.com/hsd/fire/7056.htm

http://www.bollom.com/hsd/fire/7053.htm

Apparently the first one includes urea... so that peeing on the tabs thing sounds more likely.

 

A couple of years ago I tried to find out if there was a defined standard flametest - the nearest thing I found came from BS3120 describes "Specification for performance requirements of flameproof materials for clothing and other purposes." and the flametest for that means

 

"Specimens 318mm X 51mm wide.

Apply burner flame for 12 seconds and then record time during which flaming continues on the test specimen and the area of flaming and the extend of after-glow is observed.

Using 10% of weight which is required to tear unburned material tear burner material to obtain char length

Flameproofness requirements: No test specimen shall continue to flame for more than 8 seconds after the igniting flame has been removed. After-glow shall not spread beyond the area of material damaged by flaming. The average length of material which chars or melts on the specimen shall not exceed 85mm and the maximum length of charred or melted material in any one specimen shall not exceed 114mm."

 

I can't quite remember where I found this; a disclaimer not to trust a word I write applies.

[Thirdtap]

Rule of (burnt) thumb that I have used is ....

Take a sample if possible a couple fo centimeters square. Put it in pilers and put a lighter under it - distance of about 4 cm hold there for 10 seconds. If it burns the flame should go out once the source (lighter) is taken away.

My understanding of Class 1 fire retardant is that after being in contact with a flame should the item ignite, it should self extingush once the source has been taken away.

 

People sometimes argue that because they are not using naked flames onstage they won't have the same risks and do not need to treat all the set and props. Trying to explain that licensing laws have usually been devised from experence of theatres burning down sometimes meets with blank faces. I seem to remember in the 70s and early 80s there were several fires in theatres - Savoy theatre London was the most recent I can recall. This may have been due to the fact that you could still smoke in the auditorium during the show.

 

With lamps ranging from 500w to 2kw which is 5 to 20 times more powerful then any domestic lamp the amount of heat can be huge. How many venues don't have burn marks on the back of the house tabs from lanterns?

 

Sometimes being safe and keeping the venue a safe enviroment is hard work.

:)

[Guest lightnix]

How many venues don't have burn marks on the back of the house tabs from lanterns?

Which reminds me... are there still burn marks in the back of the tabs at the London Palladium from when I flipped some VL6s the wrong way for 30 secs during a rig check a few years ago ? :)

[robloxley]

Without wishing to worry anybody...I thought the Flamecheck solution was believed to be carcinogenic, hence the reluctance to apply it to costumes :(

Anyone else come across this?

It's not carcinogenic, but contact with eyes or skin may cause irritation, hence you can argue a get-out for inner layers of costume (but you should do the outer layers e.g. of the panto dame's outfits!) or bedclothes etc. Also, you probably should wear a respirator when spraying it, and gloves while handling the liquid.

 

The relevant British Standards (which flameproofing liquids should be approved to treat fabric to) are:

 

BS 5852 Assessment of the ignitability of upholstered furniture by smouldering (i.e. cigarettes) and flaming ignition sources (butane flame or wooden crib)

 

BS 5867 Specification for fabrics for curtains and drapes, including flammability requirements tested to BS 5438 (Methods of test for flammability of textile fabrics when subjected to a small igniting flame applied to the face or bottom edge of vertically oriented specimens)