Sound control on stage

[Silvershads]

Hi Folks

 

Some time ago I posted some stuff requesting advice on speakers, amps etc. and, after assimilating it all, then looking at what I could get for the money I had available for the band, went for Peavey amps (4080HZ), tops (SP3), bins (SP118), monitors (Yamaha SM12V) and the usual stuff for FOH (Yamaha MG24/14), DBX, Sabine 2400s, Behringer twin EQ etc.. Everything is miked up, drums AKG (CS 1000 overheads and C518M toms and snare) and Audix A6 (kick). Luvverly!

 

So now we have it all set up - we've gain staged it, done the ring out, etc, and we're happy with the sound in the room. We're sitting there, all smug, waiting for the rest of the band to arrive. We sound check and we're happy there's no feedback and that everything sounds good. :P

 

Problem - one of our guitarists has a hearing problem and wants his monitor turned up "some more". We do that... so far so good... later on the rhythm guitar turns his amp volume up. This causes both bass player and lead guitar to do the same. They "like to hear their own sound".... Lead guitar (again) asks for his monitor to be turned up.. at this point we start to get some feedback. The Sabines control it automatically but the volume on stage is now very loud and bringing the faders for lead and rhythm to ZERO has no effect on the overall volume. The sound engineer (my wife) is now blamed for not being able to control the desk properly and, even when she demonstrates her problem by pointing to the faders at zero, they still think the problem is hers... not theirs.

 

To forestall some of the stuff I know is going to be said...

 

- We cannot afford In Ear Monitors

- I cannot simply murder the lead and rhythm guitarists - jail doesn't sound like a good option! :)

- We do feed the guitars and voices through the monitors

 

The only think we can think of doing now is NOT to mic up the amps at all and only mic up the vocals and drums. Does anyone think this would help? Are there any other suggestions you could make to help me resolve this problem, hopefully without violence directed at the two people concerned?

 

Cheers

Chris

[noiseman]

I'd start by ensuring the Guitarist has his cab aimed at his head and not the backs of his knees.

The practice of having the backline in a row behind the band is a historic legacy that I'm more than tired of.

It's there because back in the day it had to project into the audience as it wasn't going through the PA. This does not need to be so anymore.

 

Tell the guitarist to get one of these: Cab angle stand

If he won't tell him to turn his cab so he gets it from the side or front, anyway except from behind.

 

You can get in-ears for less than the price of a good wedge/amp package so perhaps you could chop in the stuff you have?

 

If that still doesn't work get another guitarist, they're easy to find :P .

[mervaka]

have you tried aiming the guitar cab up toward the guitarist's ears? you can buy stands for combos that do this.

[Gareth Owen]

Failing that, sticking the amps up on a few beer crates is the rock 'n' roll option.

[revbobuk]

I know this is obvious, but it's still worth saying. If you can, the best response to 'can I have more me in the monitor' is to turn down everything else in the monitor, rather than turn something up.

[Rob_Beech]

I'll start by saying welcome to our world.

 

I'll continue by saying. good advice so far. Point the cabs at their ears.

Turn up THEIR instruments in their monitors, deafen them with them. they'll soon turn down again.

[Sound Man]

- We cannot afford In Ear Monitors

 

Would you consider wired In Ear Monitors, that wouldn't cost a great deal to set up.

 

Apart from the headphones / earphones and a few leads you will only require an headphone amplifier such as the Behringer HA4700. With this amp and your desk you will get four seperate headphone mixes.

 

David

[LXbydesign]

Backline on stage needs to be thought of like lighting specials!!!

 

IE , they need to hit their target. Im not gonna use a fresnel to do a pickup on a special am I? So why would I want the sound from the guitariist spilling out all over the stage in an uncontrollerble wash of noise which the person then has to turn up to try to hear it more specifically

 

Same with backline. So yeah , get the cab pointing AT the player so HIS EARS can hear it. Anybody else who needs to hear it can have the sound sent to their own wedge / IEM

 

If when ur at FOH and you suddenly pull out all your faders but the sound level from stage stays the same - then something is REALLY wrong!!!

 

As a rule of thumb now - I NEVER let any muso have their bacline pointing out into the auidence (sometimes this requires carefull bribing and sweet talking on your behalf to the person concerned)

[J Pearce]

Now, I take a different approach.

 

If a muso wants their cab loud or wants to hit the drums hard I don't have a problem unless its causing me problems with the mix. If the guitar is loud enough without going through the PA why turn it down at the amp to turn it up in the PA?

Surely it is better to leave it, the musician is probably happier, the sound is closer to the one they want and the PA isn't working as hard. I'd still mic it up in case I need to boost it, and I tell the musician that that is their max acoustic level or no-one will hear the vocals. Most bands will want their vocals audible, so most understand not to push the amp any harder. If you need said guitar signal for delays etc then use a matrix or auxes for your delay.

 

This approach seems to lead to happier musicians who are confident in the engineers ability to craft a mix, whereas musicians who are asked not to make any noise at all and leave all that to the sound guy often seem annoyed, powerless and very unconfident that the mix will sound right.

 

However, in this situation where the guitarists love of noise is causing the other band members issues something does need to be done. I'd suggest putting the amp up higher so it hits his ears. Stand it on a flightcase, box, beer crate, table etc so that the cab is inline with his ears.

Next, rather than turn him up in his monitor turn everything else down. This prevents the 'everything louder than everything else' volume creep often prevalent in inexperienced mix engineers.

[dbuckley]

The question is does the muso want to turn up the amp to get "the sound" or is it he just cant hear it? It is an important difference, with different solutions.

[TimmyP1955]

Now, I take a different approach.

 

If a muso wants their cab loud or wants to hit the drums hard I don't have a problem unless its causing me problems with the mix. If the guitar is loud enough without going through the PA why turn it down at the amp to turn it up in the PA? than turn him up in his monitor turn everything else down.

 

Because his cabinet, especially if it is a 4x12 or 4x10, has terrible dispersion of the highs. It sounds like an ice pic in the ears to the folks in the front row at whom it is pointed, sounds okay to the folks a bit off axis, and sounds like mush to everyone else in the venue. These days, the backline is for only the muscians to hear. The PA is for the audience to hear.

[J Pearce]

A very good point, though in my opinion the effect isn't quite as bad as you make out

[Bobbsy]

If a muso wants their cab loud or wants to hit the drums hard I don't have a problem unless its causing me problems with the mix. If the guitar is loud enough without going through the PA why turn it down at the amp to turn it up in the PA?

 

 

TimmyP1955 and dbuckley both made highly relevant points...let me try to take them just a bit farther.

 

I've heard some very nice sounding bands who used the PA just for vocals and relied on the backline (or simple live sound in the case of drums) for their instruments. However, these bands knew what they were doing and set levels of the backline to give a decent blend from out in the audience. (Or at lease as good a blend as possible subject to the constraints TimmyP mentioned).

 

It doesn't sound like the OP is in this fortunate position though. In his case the musicians are getting into the fatal "I want to hear myself louder" loop. They turn up their own amp (or have themselves boosted in the monitors) and to hell with the audience and to hell with the rest of the band. All this does is result in everybody else wanting to be turned up as well...and the audience gets a feedback-riddled mush.

 

All the suggestions so far about pointing guitar amps at the ears not the knees and turning down channels instead of always going up are good ones. However, perhaps naively, I'd also suggest that the OP has a word with the band at the next rehearsal, explaining a few acoustic facts of life. It doesn't always work but few musicians want to be told their actions have made them sound BAD to the audience. If they understand that you can just keep turning everyone up (and add in the effects of listener fatigue as their ears get overloaded by the levels) and they might just be more cooperative next time. (Even better if you can speak very softly and persuade them they've damaged their hearing!)

 

Good luck!

 

Bob

[Silvershads]

You can get in-ears for less than the price of a good wedge/amp package so perhaps you could chop in the stuff you have?

 

If that still doesn't work get another guitarist, they're easy to find :D .

Hi there

 

Can you give me some examples of the IEMs you're talking about? We've already bought the monitors so anything we buy now would be on top of what we have. Not sure I want to get rid of the floor monitors but depending on prices and recommendations from you, perhaps we'd be able to get something for just the lead guitarist.

 

Easy to find? You try and find someone who can play the guitar like Hank Marvin!

 

Cheers

Chris

[Kevin Ross]

I once did sound many moons ago for a Cliff Richards and the shadows tribute band. They were exceedingly well controlled in terms of stage sound. Hell the lead guitarist even had his effects rack at FOH so at a push I could even turn him down remotely if I wanted to!

 

 

 

On the same note one of the best bass sounds I ever got was a pro covers band whose bass player turned up with a little 12” bass amp and had it kicked back and pointing at him like a monitor, the keyboard player did the same, great control over their levels and a great show all round.

 

 

 

Anyway getting to my point, I have always tried to educate bands that they are playing their music for their “fans” who pay their wages. If they choose not to listen then I will try to mix around it as best I can (note NEVER go off in a sulk, if they wont listen to you then restate your point then give up. All you will achieve after that is to annoy them and waste your own time)

 

 

 

Try all the points above, try having the amps on the side of the stage pointing across the stage, try IEMs but above all just remember that some people are just going to crank their amp and there is nothing you can do about it, you can normally spot them as they are the one who (generally) never progress their professional musical career

 

 

 

Ohh just one thing if you go to IEMs, sometimes I find that it can leave a bit of a “dead” spot in front of the stage which is not greatly covered by the mains and normally relies on the bleed from the monitors. I find in these situations a lip fill or 2 is useful