Stuck...

[nothingatall666]

So I have a bit (I say a bit, and I really do mean a bit probably around £800) of money saved up which I intend to spend on upgrading/adding to my equipment.

 

To give you a bit of background knowledge,

 

im 16 (year 11) with ambitions of being a sound engineer (which kind? Well, im yet to decide what I prefer (live/recording/theatre)) I have recently (this year) began a partnership company with my long time friend (aged 17) which is a hire’s (dry and wet) company (we also do disco’s on the side but that’s just for the extra money the setup for that is pretty much fine) we regularly tech school shows (4ish a year) as well as many other music shows and school gigs.

 

other commitments we have are voluntary local theatre work (to which, in some cases we will use our equipment) we also do small concerts.

At the moment, I would say my favourite type of work is live session type gigs.

 

After school I intend to go to college to take up a technical theatre course (the college is pretty well ‘kitted out’

Since spending a load of savings on the lighting area (before a massive (for us) £3500 upgrade, before this we had something like 4 par 56’s :/) I now want to spend on sound.

 

I’ve always said to myself that I’ll keep saving until a job comes along where I need something new. But recently I’ve been doing anything from small one mic >one speaker speeches to several bands in one night concert or a full on musical production.

I think It would be wise to list the things I already have (this list is no way a ‘look at what I have..nerrh’ list. It’s just so you can see what I would want to add)

 

Equipment I currently own;

A&H ML3000

Alto 16ch mixer [cheap thing]

2x HK premium pr:o 12’s

2x JBSystems 12” [low power]

2x Gemini (combo box thing, 15” ‘sub’+ horn +’tweeters’) [disco style cab]

2x ClassD 15” bass cabs

Thomann TA2400 [2x650W@8ohms]

Kam 1000 [ 2x250W@8ohms]

JBsystems [2x150W@8ohms]

Omnitronic [half broken 1x300W@8ohms]

6x behringer mics [cheap &cheerful]

1x sennheiser wireless EW100

Various leads and cables including;

1x 30m 24/6 multi

1x 6way insert multi-core

 

 

So simply, given my situation. What would you add/improve to this collection of <strike>junk</strike> stuff?

 

one of the things I was thinking was getting a decent speaker setup to the system. I originally thought of doing this by buying the HKpr:o subs to compliment the 12” boxes.. which is why I originally brought 12” from 15” . I’ve heard the HK’s give a nice sound. But recently I’ve taken a look at this offering from thomann http://www.thomann.de/gb/the_box_218700.htm

Which is still pretty new, so no reviews on blueroom.

Then again there is this

http://www.thomann.de/gb/the_box_pro_tp2181600_mkii.htm

which I would call the ‘big brother’ to the other one. The only major difference being weight.. Somehow I can’t imagine the Chrysler voyager coping too well with the 100KG box’s

 

Thing is. I know I won’t get anything ‘industry acceptable’ for anything near this price… or my budget. Although I like to think HK is mildly ok.

Another improvement I could make to my equipment is to buy a whole lotta leads. I have just enough to get by, having some extra ones could save me some hassle.

 

The 3rd option I was looking at was investing in more (better) mic’s. im a huge sehnn fan, so would invest in they’re E900 series.. cardioids, instrument cardioids. Etc.

 

Which path would you choose?

Am I thinking of the right investments?

 

Basically I just need a little bit of advice but didn’t want this to be a post like the many others which don’t shoe how much a person has thought about it and just says ‘what shall I get?’

 

Thank you for reading this long post and I hope that, after reading you could give me a few pointers.

 

A Pre-Thanks also to anyone who contributes.

[djw1981]

Public Liability Insurance? A sound investment.

[Rob_Beech]

A few things. The sennheiser mics are great, but people will turn their nose up at them because they're not an sm58 (or a beta58 which are acceptable). It's silly but its how it works. They also won't live up to the torture that the shure mics will.

 

I can't see the old voyager liking the ml3000 either to be honest.

 

As for the subs. If the only major difference between the tp218 and the other one is the weight then I shall order 20 of the smaller ones the very second I have clicked "add reply". The tp218 is a tour grade sub, from experience using most tour grade subs on the market (some alot more than others) it beats the majority hands down. It's only major issue is it's "The Box Pro" and not, Turbosound, or EV, or something along those lines. It's also ridiculously cheap for what it is. Due to the exchange rate they've just hopped over the £1400 mark for a pair. That INCLUDES VAT. These are a 142dB box that have to be heard to be believed. I cannot recommend them highly enough if this size and style of box is something you're after. The smaller ones I'm yet to hear, I shall probably get some on demo in the new year but I can guarantee there will be significant differences between that and the tp218.

 

So are they something you need?

Probably not. You have a pair of 12+HF tops (and nice sounding ones at that). 2x18 subs and big ones at that are not really the ideal match. I'd look at getting the 18 inch subs in the same range.

 

Remember, you don't need to be able to cover every gig you do. Larger venues may have a larger budget, you can always sub hire a system or racks and stacks from a local hire company.

[Shez]

Assuming that you've already got all the appropriate insurance in place...

I would be inclined to go for mics & cables. They're not the most exciting of things to buy but as long as you look after them they won't need replacing / upgrading for a very long time. If you buy speakers with that kind of money, you'll only want to upgrade again in another year or two.

As long as you're charging sensible prices, it won't be a problem to hire in speakers for the kind of gigs where your current gear isn't suitable.

Or maybe a deposit on a van?

[Ynot]

Well I'm going to be rather harsh here (so no surprise... :D ).

It may not be what you want to hear, but it's going to be an honest opinion.

 

First thing is a question - one that's been asked here MANY times...

 

WHY?

 

Why are you looking at buying equipment?

You've already said that you can't afford anything 'industry standard' and you're right.

£800 probably won't buy you anywhere near a half-decent amp in that vein.

 

I'm sorry, but you're making the mistake that so many youngsters (and maybe some who are not so young) make - thinking that just buying gear to hire makes you a business.

It doesn't.

A trifle blunt, I know, but that's the fact.

 

If you are serious about getting into the industry proper, then follow the other path you've indicated - ie college to LEARN about what the business is all about. Then spend a few years working FOR other people. make some contacts. Get to know what's out there and what isn't. What people are using and buying and hiring.

 

Buying trinkets and toys (because at this stage that's all you're going to afford) is really poor management of your assets.

Put your £800 in the bank til you get to 17. Use it and any other savings you make to learn to drive, then buy a car (and tax/insure it!).

 

OK - do your discos to make a few quid along the way - that's no problem, and an easy moneyspinner if you're good at it. But don't fritter away the proceeds on more toys, despite temptation.

 

If you're intent on working with the am-dram or local bands, then great. Some of your current kit list may suit the latter, but perhaps not really the former. But at the end of the day, if they need extra gear, they should be hiring in. IF you have contacts with local hire firms, then use them to equip the next gigs - don't try to buy kit for them and 'hire' to them at effectively a loss. Remember the gear you buy now may suit today's gig, but won't be right for the next play, or musical or panto. That's why pukka hire firms exist and are set up to service a known market.

 

You MAY be one of the less than 1% who decide to go for a career in the hire business from scratch and make something of it.

then again, the odds are pretty much stacked against that.

 

Ask anyone who owns/runs their own business and I'll guarantee that you won't find many who dove in head first and made a success.

 

Sorry.

 

/rant

[Russ83]

Ynot is talking a lot of sense and as he says it may sound harsh but it is generally true.

 

To everyone saying Public liability Ins. that is also a very valid comment but at 16 you may struggle to get it in your own name!

 

To have saved up £800 when your 16 is pretty good going and shows commitment so why not carry on with that attitude and leave it to grow in the bank until you need it. You don't know what type of gigs may be round the corner and if you suddenly need a few sm58 and cables to do regular band gigs then you can't really go wrong with that investment but buying more speakers that need storage or more radio mics that may be useless in a few years can be risky and you may regret it in a years time.

[nothingatall666]

wow, such a quick set of replys. thanks!

 

kindly (and perhaps naively.) my good ol' gran has offered to pay for my insurance. so no need to put money towards that.

 

thanks for the advice about getting SM58's instead of lovely sehnn's I agree and see your point here. although, for amp's/snare I still think I will go with the instrument cardioid from sehnheiser.

 

the ML3000 fits the voyager quite nicely lay'd down. theres even space for a rack/speaker or two on top.

 

agreed that maybe I don't need the big 2 18's im just looking for a speaker which isn't thought of so badly (yes its a 'the box pro' but everyone agrees that it is an amazing box for the price) other 'budget' speakers are just don't have so many comments/experiences around them. if that makes sence :S

 

thank you rob.

 

shez,

the mic's and cables route is growing me.. being young, I want to buy exciting and big stuff, but I do know its not the most sensible thing to do this.

I suppose I could make my own.. practice my soldering skills. but knowing me, I'ld get bored too quick. (which Im hoping I will grow out of)

I can in fact have free use of a van (of course not to drive it, but yer..) so for the moment. this is another thing off the list

thanks.

 

Ynot :D

 

see, I would usually have some rant back to that post but I have no energy to tonight.

firstly, why.. cause I'm keen. I want to start doing the thing I love. which means having some equipment to do so. as a business studies student attending a business and enterprise school. I know that it would not be very smart to hire all equipment in if im useing it most weekends. that would be stupid. which is why I want to have stuff of my own which means I don't have to hire everything.

I never said that buying cheap equipment so I can hire it straight out makes a business. although, If I was making a decent profit then it would wake a business.

technically a business is someone/a group who sell they're services/products to others. which is what I am doing and for an amature. I am pretty successful at doing this

 

 

If you are serious about getting into the industry proper, then follow the other path you've indicated - ie college to LEARN about what the business is all about. Then spend a few years working FOR other people. make some contacts. Get to know what's out there and what isn't. What people are using and buying and hiring.

Buying trinkets and toys (because at this stage that's all you're going to afford) is really poor management of your assets.

Put your £800 in the bank til you get to 17.

 

I don't like your attitude towards younger people wanting to learn.

experiance is what mainly counts. fair enough, training is necessary but I do not have access to this until next september. so gaining experiance is the most I can do at the moment.

I am following the 'usual path' but instead of wasting all the spare time in the process, I am being productive through it!

 

£800 may not get me close to lab gruppen/ turbosound/M audio. I don't care. its the result that counts. if it sounds nice then its as good as any other equipment which sounds nice.

 

in fact all this experience has allowed me to get in to collage. see, academically im not all that. don't get me wrong. im not dumb. far from it. but when it comes to sitting in a exam having to write about acronyms and alliterations or being without a calculator, my brain doesn't want to work. but showing how much I have done to gain experiance and things like this little hire business shows im motivated and keen. which means they accept me.

 

this hire's business is not set up to make the big time. it is set up so I can gain experience. not only with sound and lighting. but with running a business as well.

 

ok. I said I wouldn't rant about this. and I ended up doing so.

it just annoys me when im trying to gain experiance on my own earnings and someone comes along to criticize you because you don't have any designer labels.

and coming from someone whom I respect on this forum.

 

thanks Ynot

[Ynot]

Ynot

 

see, I would usually have some rant back to that post .....

Oh, dear... :)

firstly, why.. cause I'm keen. I want to start doing the thing I love. which means having some equipment to do so.

Oh dear, oh dear.... :D

as a business studies student attending a business and enterprise school. I know that it would not be very smart to hire all equipment in if im useing it most weekends. that would be stupid. which is why I want to have stuff of my own which means I don't have to hire everything.

Sorry, but in that case you might want to talk a little more about real-life business situations with your teachers.

Because if you want to DO things in this business, you don't NEED to own everything. You don't NEED to own a lot, to be honest.

What you DO need is a list of viable contacts within the business to call upon.

Contacts which will be made in your formative, learning years if you do it right.

If you were in the position of owning the right gear for one type of job (ie discos OR musicals OR straight plays OR bands OR something else), then you restrict yourself to just doing THAT type of gig.

Yes, some kit is transferrable to other genres, but not always.

So to build up a kit of quality gear that you can call upon to use whatever your event then you'll not only need a lot more cash, but also a lot more room than your dad's garage to store it in.

AND a decent set of wheels and a driving licence to get it to the gigs! (see previous 'rant'))

technically a business is someone/a group who sell they're services/products to others. which is what I am doing and for an amature. I am pretty successful at doing this

Well, to be pedantic, a business is someone who makes a success out of providing a service to others - usually success being deemed as supporting the owner in their daily life. Otherwise at best it's a hobby that brings in pocket money (or indeed a hobby making a loss...)

 

I don't like your attitude towards younger people wanting to learn.

experiance is what mainly counts. fair enough, training is necessary but I do not have access to this until next september. so gaining experiance is the most I can do at the moment.

I am following the 'usual path' but instead of wasting all the spare time in the process, I am being productive through it!

This bit really makes me chuckle - sorry, but it does.

My 'attitude' as you term it and your appreciation of it really matters very little to me. Or to many of the rest of the regular crew here.

The point is that you have COMPLETELY missed the whole point of what I posted earlier.

Sadly it IS the failing of youth that makes teens feel that they know better than their elders. It's so plain in a heck of a lot of teen postings here. That's not intended as an insult, merely a statement of fact.

 

I'm suggesting to you that rather than waste your MONEY at this stage you SAVE it and get out there and LEARN more before you spend the cash burning a hole in your pocket.

Walk before you can run, in effect. That doesn't mean formal training - spend more time learning from those at the amateur theatre. But don't waste OUR time here bleating about how downtrodden the youth members are! All we try to offer is guidance. You choose to take it or ignore it, it's up to you.

 

No-one with any sense will try to discourage anyone who wants to learn or progress or improve their lot - regardless of age.

And if you re-read what I originally wrote, I doubt you'll find me criticising - merely making suggestions and giving direction.

 

As for designer labels, I doubt you'll find me recommending those...

:D

[dbuckley]

When I started out properly in the sound game, the co-loony with whom I worked and I used gear mostly less good than that of the OP, yet by doing a competent job on the local circuit we progressed, got work, more than we could handle really, and got skills, and had a great time.

 

Quarter of a century later, I would not think to discourage someone with the same aspirations. Those sorts of aspirations are what took my co-loony to the top of the live production world.

 

My advice would be to find work within the capabilities of your equipment and your abilities and then you'll get more work.

 

The problem you face is the spectrum of types of work you take on, because depending on what you are doing there are differing requirements.

 

I'm with Shez on this one; boring stuff like mics and cables and stands. You want at least some good mics, and if bands are what you want to focus on, SM58s are a very good place to start, being how they are the most visible element. Ok so having a wireless is cool but for small gigs a wired '58 is entirely acceptable.

 

A failed cable can be a lost gig, so its an area upon which not to scrimp. If your time is free, and one can solder really well then one can make cables that are as good as they get for less money than the best cables assembled, but you'll never compete with "Made in China" stuff on money.

[Bobbsy]

I think the best advice might be not to buy anything, but....

 

If you're dead set on spending your $800, my general suggestion would be to buy a small number of truly professional items rather than a pile of prosumer junk.

 

Looking at your list, I'd say decent mics are a possibility (and, much as I don't like them myself, I agree with Rob's comments on SM58s....and maybe SM57s as intrument mics). The other thing I notice is that perhaps you could use either a good EQ or two...or perhaps a good Effects unit.

 

Finally, infrastructure like cables and cases is always a good investment.

 

Bob

[Shez]

I know that it would not be very smart to hire all equipment in if im useing it most weekends. that would be stupid. which is why I want to have stuff of my own which means I don't have to hire everything.

 

As a business student, it might be interesting for you to do some research on Orbital Sound's business model. They are one of the "big three" companies that supply kit to west end musicals and national tours. As far as I understand it, they own practically no kit themselves.

[Biskit]

my general suggestion would be to buy a small number of truly professional items rather than a pile of prosumer junk.

 

Here here.

 

It is always better to buy quality: because it will last and pay for itself in the long run, and also because purely as an investment it will hold its value better then a load of cheaper gear.

 

Here's another suggestion which I don't think has been mentioned yet... Tools, including a good case! A decent tool kit is something which will set you in good stead, and if you buy wisely, will last you a lifetime, never mind a few years. The contents will vary depending on your specialism. My lighting tool kit has my electrical and light mechanical tools and testers (all top quality) and a full selection of DMX adapters, terminators, tester, and other 'get out of jail quick' items.

 

If you are mainly a noise-boy, your kit would include a lot of adapters and a few leads (well made quality ones rather than off-the-shelf molded ones), a mic or two, perhaps a couple of DI boxes, spare connectors & soldering kit, plus the usual torch, screwdrivers, pliers etc (quality again), tape, cable ties, pens.

 

There's nothing worse than being on a gig and having a problem caused by something really trivial which you know you could solve if only you had the correct tool! It really makes me laugh if I go to a pub and there's a DJ who may actually have some reasonable kit, but the whole rig only works when he holds the stack of adapters coming out of his mixer over to one side to get a good contact, or whatever!

 

If your ultimate aim is to work on events rather than being a warehouse keeper, tools are the best investment because you will use them even when you do an event with all other equipment provided. Expect to spend a good few hundred pounds on tools and case... more if you include any test equipment (less likely with sound). Put the rest towards learning to drive (as others have said).

 

Ben.

[tecky_man]

This thread seems to have changed from what should I buy, to Should I buy...

Anyway It seems quite an interesting one, so I thought I'd add my bit,

 

Like you Harry, I wanted to buy more kit at your age, but I went for the buy some small useful bits, a few SM58's, a box of handy cables and connectors and a good tool kit etc.

I now work freelance for a few people including a local arts centre, which has proved an invaluable contact as I can borrow high end for a much much reduced rate (and a few beers).

It also meens I don't have to worry about owning the right bit of kit, or maintaining it, etc etc

So if anything this has allowed me to do a lot more, as I'm not limited to what I own.

 

Another thing to bear in mind is, what are you planning for the future? Do you plan to leave school/college etc and go into this full time, or do you plan to head off to Uni or another training? If so you need to think, is buying lots of kit going to be worth it if you might move away for a few years, and have to leave all your kit at home not being used.

 

Hope thats of some help....

 

James

[Pete McCrea]

I know that it would not be very smart to hire all equipment in if im useing it most weekends. that would be stupid. which is why I want to have stuff of my own which means I don't have to hire everything.

 

As a business student, it might be interesting for you to do some research on Orbital Sound's business model. They are one of the "big three" companies that supply kit to west end musicals and national tours. As far as I understand it, they own practically no kit themselves.

 

Unless you mean they have it all on finance, I think you might be wrong. I went to Uni with the chap who's now Head of Sound Design, and having popping in once or twice for a brew, I can say they have a fairly big warehouse with a veritable shed load of kit in it. Or at least the space for it when it's not working as it's usually out on shows.....

[Shez]

Unless you mean they have it all on finance, I think you might be wrong. I went to Uni with the chap who's now Head of Sound Design, and having popping in once or twice for a brew, I can say they have a fairly big warehouse with a veritable shed load of kit in it. Or at least the space for it when it's not working as it's usually out on shows.....

 

I'd heard from someone else in the industry that HBOS (or a similar institution) actually owned all of their kit. I may be wrong of course...