JackPott Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 I saw this yesterday and had a little investigation into it, and one website I came across explaining the relevant legislation says The Regulations do permit discrimination in very limited circumstances where a genuine occupational requirement exists. The employer must be able to demonstrate that she or he has an ethos based on religion or belief that results in a genuine and determining occupational requirement for a worker to be of a particular religion or belief and that it is proportionate to apply that requirement in a particular case.Source How do you quantify an 'ethos based no religion'? And to echo some earlier posts, how does religion influence the pointing of a light or mixing of a show, or any other technical speciality. Its one of the most fascinating debates I've come across for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Coker Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 I think you'd be surprised at how ecumenical some christians are. As someone who listens on a regular basis to the Sunday programme and has many friends within all kinds of faith communities, I would be very surprised. Some of the attitudes expressed towards the gay community and towards women by some of the Lambeth delegates - and even more so at the GAFC in Jerusalem - were an absolute disgrace to any society that even contemplates an egalitarian society. I stand by what I wrote KC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LXbydesign Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 Would the same princible not apply then to a job I saw in The Stage a while back for an ethnic minority company state that the technical person had to be of ethnic minority to apply? I had some friends who were more than qualified / experienced to go for the job - but were unable to purely because they were white. I think this dicrimination law is a very fine line and seems to be able to be malipulated to suit the cause. I would have no problem working in an "all ethic minority" group or christians or some other religous movements. ok , there is one religion I totally disagree with and would refuse to be any part of a group with those there but thats my choice. It should be our choice to whom we work with regardless of colour, creed, sexuality or gender. These type adverts or laws (as such) as they are, just create barriors and conflict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w/robe Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 The important word is SOME, as in..I think you'd be surprised at how ecumenical some christians are.I belong to a denomination where women have been ordained for years, if not decades and I know of same sex partnerships that have been blessed by ordained ministers, all of which I agree with. This either makes me a free thinker interpreting the gospel in light of the modern world or a wishy-washy liberal with no firm basis to my faith depending on your point of view.In truth it is probably a bit of both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Ross Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 I was surprised when I read this ad on the board and thought to myself “That’s on rather shaky ground” From my own perspective I have toured with a Christian rock band and being a non believer I found the experience just fine. They used to have a quick pray before they went on and if I was in the same room I treated them with the respect that anyone’s belief deserves (it might not be import to me but it is important to them). Whilst I don’t believe in god I did find their attitude very refreshing and I do genuinely like their sharing and fellowship ethos and would not hesitate to work with them again. If it was a one off run in my local area I would even consider applying to the advertised position in order to get a bit more experience in the land of theatre as I am normally found in the live music/corporate world and I think it never hurts to gain experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundiesam Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 Hey all I used to work for the tour your all talking about the reason for the advertisement asking for Christian only is because when you join that production you start working for a christian charity and you are expected to be part of the community that goes with the tour in question sam P.S There is not normally any money involved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LXbydesign Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 Fair enough, but surely one can still be "part of the community", socialising etc without actually having to join in and pray. If the christian ethos is "arms open to everyone" then they should respect my beliefs - not that I have any - as I respect theirs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundiesam Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 its hard to explain all id say its probably not suitable for a non christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew C Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 its hard to explain all id say its probably not suitable for a non christianThen it should be changed. No (OK, a very small number) job can be advertised as "unsuitable for blacks, gays, women, muslims or whatever". Why should christians be allowed to exclude any section of the community when it suits them? You could exclude a deaf person from sound engineering because you cannot change the job; this is fundamentally different from excluding on the basis of which fairy story you believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Lyall Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 One might argue that in the Christian faith, because God created everything and God gave you the talents that you have, your ability to mix/operate a followspot/etc, is God induced. Therefore, God (and thus Christianity) is part of the ethos. However, personally, I think it's a bit daft of them and doesn't really follow the Christian believe of being all loving and all that jazz. Whether it's against the law or not, I'm not sure; I'm just playing the [wait for it....] 'devils advocate' It's ok... I'll get my coat! Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LXbydesign Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 Yes thats right. Sorry but I agree with Andrew on this. So what happens on the interviews for one of those jobs, say as a lighting tech - and there are 5 people, 4 of which are totally suitable for the gig but not christian - and the christian guy is keen but knows very little. Are they going to take him on just becuase of his faith and not what he can actually do as part of the job description? Thats ridiculous. That would be like me employing a useless stage manager - but he's gay - so he gets the job over 2 decent straight stage managers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 Then it should be changed. No (OK, a very small number) job can be advertised as "unsuitable for blacks, gays, women, muslims or whatever". Agree - discrimination is discrimination is discrimination. It's just not acceptable! However, playing devil's advocate for a little while... the employer/manager/whatever has to look at the whole person. It's not just their technical abilities, it's how will they fit in to the team. Imagine a different scenario- you've got a stage crew who have worked well together for years. All are friends, and all are dedicated hunt saboteurs. Every day when they're not working, they're out trying to disrupt hunting or whatever. The most anti-hunting people you've ever met. Nothing wrong with that. They can do their job perfectly well. Now you advertise for a new member for the team. You interview him, you give him a practical test. He's perfect for the job. None of the other candidates even come close. You're just about to offer him the job when he mentions that he is master of the local hunt. What do you do? From a technical perspective he's the ideal candidate, but he wouldn't fit in. There would be difficulties working with the rest of the team. It'd be endless problems. But if you offer the post to a less well qualified and experienced candidate, he could call foul.... [/devil's advocate] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LXbydesign Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 That is a tricky one!!! Saying that though, on a professional level, he should be able to be part of the team to do the job. Whatever he does outside of the workplace is his buisness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smalljoshua Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 How about informing the candidate that the rest of the team is very anti-hunting and let him make his own mind up about it. Josh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gareth Posted August 5, 2008 Author Share Posted August 5, 2008 Hey all I used to work for the tour your all talking about the reason for the advertisement asking for Christian only is because when you join that production you start working for a christian charity and you are expected to be part of the community that goes with the tour in question sam P.S There is not normally any money involvedSo the advert was not really what it seemed at first glance, then. Rather than seeking technical staff for a tour, what they're looking for is 'fresh recruits' to their Christian charitable organisation, who also happen to have some technical theatre ability so that they might be deployed on one of the charity's current activities (which happens to be a 'west end style' (!) musical production). From what you've said, from looking at their website, and from reading between the lines in the ad they posted, the religious faith of potential applicants would be more of a factor than any technical ability they may or may not have. With that in mind, I question whether the 'situations vacant' forum of a technical production website is the right place to be posting a recruitment drive for a religious organisation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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