Fireproofing certification?

[gnomatron]

We've been asked by our local fire officer for certification that our drapes are fireproofed and the schedule for the reproofing, which we haven't been asked for before.

 

How does everyone else handle this? My preferred method would be to treat the drapes (standard black wool serge stuff, but old enough that we don't have the original certification) every 6 months with flambar and log that somewhere. Just wondering if this sort of procedure has been adequate to satisfy other fire officers, and more importantly whether it's enough for them to be safe, or whether I need to do more.

[Neil Hampson]

I can't answer your question directly, however if your drapes are 'Wool Serge', then you should not need to re-proof them. The material is sold as 'DFR' which means that they are treated at manufacture to be flameproofed and no further proofing should be required as they should maintain there original flame retardent properties throughout there life, (even if washed a reasonable number of times) hence 'Durable Flame Retardent' Other materials such as Bolton Twill, most velvets, Dymolan etc. are treated differently with water based solutions and are classed as 'NDFR' which means that the flameproofing process is not permanent and needs 'topping-up' every once in a while. If washed then all flame retardency is lost. Some fabrics are given the classification of 'IFR' which is 'Inherently Flame Retardant', these fabrics are made from naturally flame retardant fibres and are not treated at all.

 

Maybe a flame test on a small sample, cut from the back of one of the seams will satisify the F.O. There should however be a label on the header tabs showing the material of manufature and the BS standard referred to.

 

Edit: removed repeated text

[w/robe]

Wool serge, as a fabric, is not DFR though most wool serge tabs are as they are made from fabric that has been treated. Unless you know where they were made or the fabric bought you can not assume that they have any level of flame retardancy.

[timtheenchanteruk]

we had ours done at our local dry cleaning place, not all have facilities for such large curtains,

 

ours were DFR after doing, and came with a label sown onto the header, with a clip off bit for each time they were cleaned so you know when they needed re-doing.

 

It was cost comparable with buying enough flam-stop or similar without counting time to do them plus it lasted for ages.

[paulears]

The Fire Officer no longer carries out flame tests - as it's self-certification it's up to you - so if you treat them yourself, and keep records as to quantity used, who did it etc, they will be quite happy as it's on your head, not theirs.

 

 

The info on the dry cleaning place is handy - didn't realise they did this kind of thing.

[David A]

To test for flame retardation apply a flame to a small area of curtain, I have lit curtains with all the right labels but they still burnt well.If the curtain is flame retarded it will not set alight, that is the only valid test, if the building burns down it doesn't help that all the paperwork was in order, it is beyond my understanding that people are happy with a certificate but freak out at doing the simple and obvious test.

[gnomatron]

Freaking out at setting fire to things to see if they're flame retardant or not isn't that hard to understand, is it? Of course I'd be inclined to do such a test on a small swatch outdoors somewhere safe.

 

The dry cleaning thing is very interesting! I don't suppose anyone in Scotland has had that done? I'm in Edinburgh and it would be great to find somewhere that could do it, my drapes are all in need of a good clean too.

[David A]

Setting fire to things is the only way to see if they're fire retardant, it isn't that hard to understand is it?

This isn't rocket science, what am I missing here?

[DMX coffee machine]

Don't forget that dust collecting in curtains is also good for nourishing fire.

Here in Germany you're supposed to vaccuum clean your cloths about once a year, if you can't or don't wash them or give them to dry cleaning.

Althought, I must confess that I almost never meet companies/theatres who actually do that...

[Chris Adam]

We take care of this in two ways:

1. our cloths - this involves us getting our finger out and giving the cloths a good shake in the car park to clear off the dust, giving them a wee spray with flame check and putting a lighter to one unseen corner. Not to mention ticking the box to say that we are all good and nothings going to turn into a fireball.

2. touring cloths - Ask them for the fire certificate. No fire certificate - a quick test on an unseen corner in a safe area. If it goes up, it doesn't get used. If it really goes up, it's in the bin (pitchshifter's cloth did this a few years back!!)

 

Dry cleaning seems like a bit excessive, but if they haven't been done for years, they could be in some state. We just pop it into our yearly cleaning schedule and the cloths stay nice and safe. Usually you can tell if a cloth is in danger of going up because of the dust, but we always make sure we stay safe either way. Wouldn't like to see a fire on stage at any venue unless it's a pyro!

[paulears]

The problem with the naked flame test, is the actual test parameters - how big a flame, how close, how long for. Cessation of test conditions, at what point do you stop. charing or blackening - or smouldering, or actual flames. This is the problem, applying flame till something happens is quite valid if you have a standard test and repeatable conditions. If the cloth under test is man made fibre then are you able to say what it is, composition wise? Whatever test you do has to have reliability and repeatability otherwise it isn't valid. Is a result that says heavy charing, smoke, but no flame meaningful? Sure, if you apply a lighter to a hem and it flames up, and you have to squirt it to put the flame out, it isn't safe - but is the one that chars, smokes and smells safer? Depends what's in the smoke, doesn't it?

[lx bear]

Sorry to hijack again (must stop doing this)

quick question...

 

Our Red drapes were splattered with cream in a recent production of Bugsy by Stagecoach, they are looking at getting a cleaning company in to steam clean them, hope this isnt a silly question but will they need fire proofing after wards?

 

It will all be charged back to them, but its something Im not too sure on.

[Chris Adam]

Personally I'd do it to be on the safe side even if they are DFR. It's just not worth the risk. I'm not keen on people being anal about Health and safety as it can ofetn start to contardict what it's trying to achieve, but in this case it does noboady any harm to chuck some flame check at 'em.

[gnomatron]

Cheers for all the help folks! Guess I'll be giving them a good shake in the car park and getting on the case with the flamecheck/flambar, then trying a test on a wee corner. Anyone got any good ideas for repeatable test parameters? I'm going to go with a lighter for 10 seconds (or less in the unlikely event it takes!).

[DMX coffee machine]

Hm. I wonder if there aren't Europen Standards for the "proof of things being fireproof".

Here you either got cloths that are inherently fire-resistant, like Trevira. Which is awfully expensive.

Then you got cloths like velvet, or stage-cloth (we call it "Molton", "silence cloth" is one of the translations I find). Those need to be made fire-proof. That is usually done by the manufacturer, with salts, while they fabricate them. Or you can fireproof the cloth yourself, with the stuff you all been talking about.

So. For the proof of it: I think there exists an international standard on how the manufacturers have to test the cloths that they sell as fireproof. It involves the temperature of the flame, the size of the flame, and the angles in which the flame is hold against the cloth (if the cloth is horizontally, or vertical). Okay, now on research, I only find a DIN, which is only a german standard. I don't have it, since you got to buy it, and it's expensive. But usually those things also do have an ISO-Standard.

I am pretty sure, if you'd do your tests as described in that standard, you'd be on the safe side. Only: What _are_ those standards?

I'll try to find that out tomorrow at the company...