sach160 Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 hey if there are any sound guys on this forum - I have a question I'd really like to ask you guys - I've got a cool new guitar rig, that has an amp for the dry sound, and two cabs for the stereo effects. for gigs in small venues, if I bring 3 e609 mics that just drape over the cabs and 3 mic cables myself, do you think it's reasonable/unreasonable for me to ask for 3 channels on the board, one panned left at level 50 (left effects), one centre at level 100 (dry), and one panned right at level 50 (right effects)? I have no idea if it's asking too much or not of sound guys in small venues, so your opinion would be much appreciated... I think using the effects I use in stereo makes a significant difference to the quality of sound when I'm stood in front of it, playing and when recording (I use an eventide eclipse, and it's designed for stereo use). in terms of live and micing up and going through a PA with the rest of a band does anyone have an idea as to whether it would retain this impact, or for live use whether it was stereo or mono, would it not make much difference? has anyone had guitarists in stereo to contend with? or at least in a rig with 3 cabs miced up, would it sound bigger/fuller even if the stereo effect is lost somewhat, or am I really here just making things harder for myself without much gain? I'd really like to hear your opinions guys, as playing on stage obviously I'm in no position to judge this... thanks, sache Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Lewis Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 When playing through a large sound system (in every sense - power, venue, desk channel count) with a good engineer, you should be able to achieve pretty much what you are asking for. In a small venue, the PA may be in mono, the speakers may be so far apart that "stereo" simply doesn't register as a binaural effect, or the desk operator may not have enough channels for a guitar rig that needs three mics... Why not try and contact the engineer ahead of the gig? Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyJones Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 Could you not put into a small desk of your own then give the engineer the output? It may well be a stupid idea-I'm not a sound person. :( AndyJones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Siddons Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 I agree with the above but also consider that in small venues the audience is going to hear your cabinets as well as whatever is mic'd into the PA creating a very weird effect, now if your prepared to turn down to the level only that only what is mic'd appears in the front of house sound, you will create some very happy engineers and make a lot of friends! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 Did exactly this with a Queen show, where the guitarist had 3 AC30s doing similar stuff to what you are suggesting. But as Simon said, ou need to be very careful with hard panned lefts and rights. Chorus and tremelo are often really disturbing when the depth is set too deep - it sets up a head turning distraction in the audience, not the great effect you are after. The other thing is that your own contribution to the mix may not be from the foh persons viewpoint (ear point?), quite as prominent as you think it is. Depending on the venue, you could be very, very loud without going through the PA - so the engineer keeps you very low in the mix for it to sound balanced. If this happens then what does come through the PA will need to be narrower, to match what the audience are hearing direct - or they could clash horribly. The reality is that you have to trust the sound man to know what works best. You can give him 3 feeds, you, on stage have no idea which ones he uses and pans. I would own up to taking a stereo feed from stage, but only using one - when channels have been tight. When I've had this problem, I've reduced stereo synths to mono, and had mono guitars rather than lose the floor tom channel. We'd always try to accommodate everyone, but when things have to go - 3 channels would I suspect be looked at as something to cut - and maybe not mention? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mervaka Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 all depends on the size of the gig imo. on smaller gigs I'd just let the cabs do the stereo image, and just take a mono feed, if at all. on larger gigs mic everything up by all means. it all depends on one's interpretations of "small" and "large" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisD Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 I don't know what area of the market you're playing for, but in venues with less than 200 or 300, unless you've got a really good engineer, I don't expect you'll hear the effect through the PA, you're far more likely to hear it direct from the cabs. A lot of small gigs I've worked on, the mics on the guitars just get sent to drum & vocal foldback, but it all depends on size and room acoustic. At the end of the day as others have said, it all depends on size. If the engineer is mixing off a desk with fewer than 12 (or possibly 16) channels, you're pushing your luck I feel, but that's just my 2 cents... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Riley Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 Some slightly useful info - if you're worried about the quality of the sound you're getting then it's probably worth getting hold of some mic stands, and marking the appropriate point on the cab for each mic, so you get more consistent and better mic placement. If you're really serious about doing this stereo thing then perhaps get hold of some of the clearsonic amp cases, then all the audience hear is the PA sound, and the stereo image doesn't get confused by the amp sound as well. However, most sound engineers (including me) put together mixes in mono - PA rigs are rarely set up well enough for more than a few people right in between the speakers to get the benefit of the stereo effect, and if you try hard panning on an average PA system, then most of the audience are going to get a really bad mix for the benefit of a few people dead in between the speakers - sometimes it's best to keep it simple when you're touring, remembering that there's a very good chance that the band will sound a lot better out the front when you do. Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sach160 Posted April 3, 2008 Author Share Posted April 3, 2008 Hey, guys many thanks for the opinions - really useful. I get the general feeling that in small venues it's not worth micing 3 cabs as they'll often be in mono, and as you pointed out, the image from the PA will mess with the image from the amp. But how about this (again I'm just guessing here, so your opinions would be much appreciated) - play with 3 cabs in my wet left/dry centre/wet right setup, and just set one mic a little further away than you'd usually set a mic on a guitar cab live - so it picks up all 3 cabs - then the PA sound would be mono, and there would be some stereo imaging from my cabs directly... what do you guys think to this? Would it work? Where would I position the mic to get a 50/50 balance of wet and dry (my cabs output left 25 wet, centre 50 wet, right 25 wet). Thanks again for your help, Sache Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Beech Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 I think this can work in some situations as said, but there are lots of things working against. it. At the end of the day, you have to be prepared to work around things when the venue hasn't got the channels to accommodate this. Have a look at buying a small desk like the Folio Notepad so you can mix the 3 channels yourself, you can then give a mono feed to the PA, or a stereo feed if possible. On the larger things they might have 3 channels available and you can forget your mixer and just plug straight to the PA, thus giving the guy at FOH more control. Yes, minimising cabinet sound will help here, but it's not always practical. There are venues you'll do where the PA is not really up to much and all its headroom needs to be saved for getting the vocals above the backline. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sach160 Posted April 6, 2008 Author Share Posted April 6, 2008 I think this can work in some situations as said, but there are lots of things working against. it. At the end of the day, you have to be prepared to work around things when the venue hasn't got the channels to accommodate this. Have a look at buying a small desk like the Folio Notepad so you can mix the 3 channels yourself, you can then give a mono feed to the PA, or a stereo feed if possible. On the larger things they might have 3 channels available and you can forget your mixer and just plug straight to the PA, thus giving the guy at FOH more control. Yes, minimising cabinet sound will help here, but it's not always practical. There are venues you'll do where the PA is not really up to much and all its headroom needs to be saved for getting the vocals above the backline. Rob Hey Rob, I could get a mixer, use 3 mics and 3 cabs, and then get a signal either mono or stereo depending on what the sound guy wants, but in terms of practical use, it would be better I think if I just decided before the gig depending on what size of venue it was - i.e. for small venues just place a mic to take a feed of all 3 cabs... and for larger gigs, take a couple of extra mics... What problems do you anticipate with taking one mic to pick up all 3 cabs - I guess I'd have the cabs pointing in a circle to one point and put the mic in the middle... any advice on placement for this kinda setup? is it likely there'd be any feedback issues? I dont think bleed from other stuff would be a problem, as the mic would still be much closer to the cabs than to any other sound... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_hate_fisicks Posted April 6, 2008 Share Posted April 6, 2008 What problems do you anticipate with taking one mic to pick up all 3 cabs - I guess I'd have the cabs pointing in a circle to one point and put the mic in the middle... any advice on placement for this kinda setup? is it likely there'd be any feedback issues? I dont think bleed from other stuff would be a problem, as the mic would still be much closer to the cabs than to any other sound... This won't work. Guitar cab mics need to be very up close to the cabs, otherwise they will indeed pick up everything on the stage. If you need all 3 cabs heard through the PA, then 3 mics it must be. It depends how big a venue you're going to be playing of course. Most pubs there's no need to mic up guitars anyway, so problem gone away. I'd be more concerned in such a place about where on earth I was going to put my 3 cabs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.