Lighting in China

[tokm]

The companies you listed almost certainly don't pay 5k for a mac500

Obviously not, I meant to put 550, which I know they still wouldn't pay anywhere near that for.. The point is, that was just a random figure I thought up when I was posting about brands used and why.

 

Just thought I'd clear that up..

 

Anyways, I think this is all starting to just go round and round in circles, much as past threads have done. <_<

[RobOwen]

It's getting late; but I can't help but look at this topic!

 

Ceecrb, I feel I should (and would if I could) retract the comments towards you. You are quite clearly having problems and who am I all the way over here to try and say why they are being caused. I can't quite work out why I got so worked up over something that I don't have anything to do with on a day-day basis. We don't sell the FINE 2K in the UK, so we haven't had any bad feedback on them here, other than what we know about ours, which to be honest, dont get much use. Were more used to fixtures like the 700s which as you say, are great fixtures.

 

Apologies for the off hand remarks.

 

I don't believe that there have been any major innovations in this field for quite some time (perhaps when Martin introduced the animation wheel, which every "normal" brand has copied). Most luminaires are repackaged ideas, maybe with a tendancy to get smaller and lighter (Clay Paky Alpha 300). The latest XB version of the MAC I cannot see much R&D involved in, perhaps some of Vari-Lites ideas?

 

I agree with Karls point (for the reasons above also), stands like Martin's at PLASA were very impressive, and it seemed funny that Martin and Robe were competing to have the bigger stand. Banter between marketing departments perhaps, until you think about who actually pays for it. What is essentially an ego massage for the parties involved is effectively paid for by customers who may have to put their company at risk to buy these, artificially high priced, fixtures in order to keep up with the game.

[Ike]

Tokm,

 

I actually was thinking of 600s anyway but was having a bit of a senior moment. <_<

 

Hire companies obviously don't want stock sat in the warehouse and with the (understandable) negative feeling towards direct copies they wouldn't be a good choice. That said I do honestly (and no I'm not playing devils advocate now) believe there are a lot of eastern manufacturers producing original products of better value for money than a lot of the big names however they are not stocked for the reasons given in previous posts.

 

In the interest of not going round in circles I won't bother repeating them here.

[lichtwicht]

stands like Martin's at PLASA were very impressive, and it seemed funny that Martin and Robe were competing to have the bigger stand.

 

I can't talk about PLASA has I've been there only once, but the funny thing is that it's the opposite way at ProLight&Sound: When I've been there for the first time Martin had a double size exhibition booth while it got smaller with every year, although the number of visitors are growing.

 

I still find it interesting that some seem to know how easy the calculations of the western manufacturers are while I as economist with additional engineering courses am not able to say anything how much of the revenues are absorped by R&D, manufacturing, service, administration, marketing. It seems that we have here lots of insiders who even know how much the managers of the companies are earning.

 

BTW: Many chinese ripp-offs try to enter the German market by giving their gear to well known rental companies for free. So I don't see why "endorsement" is something western specific. But again: Probably I got the wrong academic education and ethics...

[Nick S]

The point people miss here about Chinese fixtures is that in order for distributors and users not to end up in prison the fixtures must not breach these patents. So while the Chinese may copy some aspects of design, the original manufacturer has not been able to demonstrate that part of the design is original and innovative.

 

So are you seriously telling me that Chinese manufacturers don't breach patents because they're scared of end users ending up in jail?

 

Seriously?

 

Do you have any idea how hard to it to enforce any kind of intellectual property claim against a company based in China? Do you think people really care if your product is patented when it comes to ripping it off?

 

The real reason (IMO) has far more to do with the economics behind it - the truly innovative patents (rather than the ridiculous, eg, CK patenting RGB LED mixing) require a substantial amount of investment in component parts. Companies seeking to 'rip off' these products don't copy these parts because they cost too much. Case in point - look at all the iphone clones coming out of Asia. Identical body wise, but lacking underlying technology simply because adding that technology wouldn't be cost effective.

[RobOwen]

I don't think anyones claiming to know the "secrets" of R&D costs. Most people on here, including myself, have something to do with engineering, and know how it's done, but don't have the resources or the inclination to do it, especially when so many others are.

 

I think Karl was right in picking up on things like mega offices. I can't imagine Martin working from a shed, or indeed the directors and staff working out of the goodness of their hearts, wages are determined by market forces just like prices. So theres a good degree of educated guessing to be done. I always remember when Martin made about £1,000,000 one year after claiming to make 100,000 MACs in five years. 20,000 MACS then a year, equalling £50.00 profit per MAC. Thats an awful lot of R&D by any stretch of the imagination, and a complete waste of time as the money was better off in the bank, and thats assuming they earnt nothing out their other product lines. There must have been a lot of money leaving the company somewhere.

 

My point about the XB 2K MAC was slightly cynical. I have no idea how much it cost them to come up with putting a 1500w source in a 1200w fixture. Although at a guess it cost Vari-Lite a damn sight more!! My point was it's hardly groundbreaking stuff. Main issue being additional heat, so anything in the path needs beefing up. Simple..ish.

 

And while, as Ceecrb was saying, the quality of the our fixtures has moved on with the 700s, where else do we go,what more can we (or anyone) do with a non-digital moving light. Smaller & Lighter seems to be the way things are going, but does it really matter? It's not going to hugely affect the end result, just make rigging easier.

 

The point people miss here about Chinese fixtures is that in order for distributors and users not to end up in prison the fixtures must not breach these patents. So while the Chinese may copy some aspects of design, the original manufacturer has not been able to demonstrate that part of the design is original and innovative.

 

So are you seriously telling me that Chinese manufacturers don't breach patents because they're scared of end users ending up in jail?

 

Seriously?

 

Do you have any idea how hard to it to enforce any kind of intellectual property claim against a company based in China? Do you think people really care if your product is patented when it comes to ripping it off?

 

The real reason (IMO) has far more to do with the economics behind it - the truly innovative patents (rather than the ridiculous, eg, CK patenting RGB LED mixing) require a substantial amount of investment in component parts. Companies seeking to 'rip off' these products don't copy these parts because they cost too much. Case in point - look at all the iphone clones coming out of Asia. Identical body wise, but lacking underlying technology simply because adding that technology wouldn't be cost effective.

 

No I don't think the Chinese care. It;s very hard to get them. But it's extremely easy to go after people this end who import it. Martin has gone after a few people in it's time (LightJockey running on other dongles) and have had mixed success. They are very trigger happy when it comes to going after a company in Europe. I would predict they would go after people even if they didn't have a chance of winning in an attempt to put them out of business on the process. Don't be fooled, Martin are an extremely aggressive company, and are very capable of looking after themselves.

[lichtwicht]

Don't be fooled, Martin are an extremely aggressive company,

Sounds really strange for a company that is protecting its intellectual property... Finally it's time for me to go out of this discussion as I can't understand those unbalanced attitude regardung intellectual property.

[Ike]

BTW: Many chinese ripp-offs try to enter the German market by giving their gear to well known rental companies for free. So I don't see why "endorsement" is something western specific. But again: Probably I got the wrong academic education and ethics...

No it's fair to say eastern brands are doing it too. The problem I see is that with such large market shares it's all too easy for big western companies 'endorsements' to end up stifling competition and pushing the smaller players out of the market. Is a production company really going to risk upsetting one of the big manufacturers and losing their discount to take a chance on a newer manufacturer. Currently I don't see eastern brands as being in a position to do this.

 

Anyway your comments are indeed interesting, sorry I couldn't be more accurate with mine but as you so rightly spotted I'm not an economist.

[RobOwen]

Sorry to drag the topic up again, but I missed something out before.

 

The Chinese desperately want to do a deal with you, when your talking buying qtys of items be it building materials or lighting the figures you are dealing with are normally more than a lifetimes wages for these people.

 

How many times has anyone on here who has dealt with China got in touch with the manufacturer about a product and the first question you asked is "Whats your best price?". They then come forward with a price and you promptly kick them in the nuts and bid them half of what they just asked you. They come forward with a new price and again you bid under it. The sales team are still desperately trying to get the sale, and you know it. They warn you that quality will suffer if you want the product at the low price, and say why not pay $40 more and it will be fine. You are doing a deal on a hundred lights and know that thats $4,000 (£2,000 - a lovely plasma screen for the office wall?) out of your profits. Greed gets the better of you and you don't budge. You get a rubbish product through as a result of kicking too hard, and they all go wrong. The Chinese manufacturer gets the blame, and their reputations are damaged.

 

The difference is that a manufacturer in China caves in, the ones in Europe would leave the deal. The difference is that the sales staff in Europe know they are well looked after (within reason), by all sorts of employment laws etc. As a result of loosing deals the factory in China may well go under with no social security for the employees. Thats why they take the deal. The competition is so huge in China that loosing just one deal to the competition can end it all.

 

If you always allow the manufacturer the margins they want (within reason) then they can afford to make the product good. Squeezing them just causes the material budget to decrease. They don't need huge profits as the cost of living is so low, so they tend to put little margin on the products in the first place.

 

Before I found Fine Art I used to bring cheap heads over from China, but wasn't overly hard on the price. I always remember that out of a batch of 50 heads, we replaced one fan under warranty.

 

Another thing that was mentioned earlier in the topic about the disco shop importing heads. Firstly, I suggest he done the above. Secondly, the Chinese love changing designs if they think it makes the product more "beautiful". And as we all know beauty lies in the eye of the beholder. I've seen things like awful multi-coloured control buttons because they think black ones are ugly. There was a good saying on one of the topics on here by someone "Get what you inspect, not what you expect". This rings true of the smaller factories. People like PR/Fine Art etc etc do keep their products and parts the same throughout the life of the product (bar minor modifcations).

[dbuckley]

Point your browser at http://www.theatrelight.co.nz and note the text at the bottom of the page. Then navigate to http://www.tllighting.com/english/about.html and note the passing similarity of product.....

[RobOwen]

Point your browser at http://www.theatrelight.co.nz and note the text at the bottom of the page. Then navigate to http://www.tllighting.com/english/about.html and note the passing similarity of product.....

 

In 1994 Theatrelight set up a Joint Venture in China (Zhuhai Tai Li Theatrelight) with partner Zheng Daheng. Zheng Daheng's son, Charlie Zheng, worked as a senior manager and later director of Theatrelight New Zealand for some years.

 

This might not be as clear cut as it appears. There has obviously been some dispute between the directors, and their was some relationship in the past. It's not a simple copy of the best selling product. It looks personal. Legally Theatrelight may have design patents etc, but whats to say that the gentleman who defected wasn't the brains behind the operation anyway? You can pretty much bet your life the products will be as good.

 

In 2002 it was discovered that Zheng Daheng had forged Theatrelight signatures and company seals (later confirmed by the Supreme Court of Guangzhou)

 

Fraud is a capital offence in China. If that was the case then Mr Daheng wouldn't still be here!

[dbuckley]

Indeed - Its not just the rip off copy syndrome, its producing products under licence and then not stopping producing under licence when required to do so. There are many stories on the net of Chinese companies who actually manufacture goods for a company who then keep the production lines running, producing identical goods with different brand names.

 

Expect to see a lot more of this.

[musht]

Classic story about Marconi , major UK defence contractor.

 

Contracted to make a secure navy comms sytem called Growler, in the end only 28 units were required, 30 were made and 2 listed as scrapped prototypes.

Except because they were expensive to make and only any use as pairs, Marconi fixed up the `scrapped` protos and sold them to another , non UK navy, kind of rendering the other 28 in use a bit less secure....

[live]

I've tried to sit this one out but I feel that it's a good (if prickly) subject.Yes the far east do what they have always done copy and make it cheaper, see what is popular and sells well and make it cheaper, take moulds of lighting effects and make them cheaper (see the common thread!)

My question is this as a retailer would you sell more Pixelpars or stairville/showtec/no name par 64 leds? Easy answer really just a question of what they cost vs retail price,and I have to agree with Rob about a lot of importers do screw every penny out of the chinese but don't pass the lower cost on to the end user, it's that fact that makes a lot of equipment really poor quality,business is business, screw more profit = screw the cost of components = poor quality.

As for artistic liscence I wholeheartedly agree with a lot of the comments, I for one have informed friends at Martin when I've seen ppl advertising open dongles with the "suggestion" that a copy of Lightjockey will be supplied/or can be downloaded with a direct link to Martins website,it's just wrong and will eventually kill creativity and progress. Imagine you spend 8 months writing code and ironing out bugs,another 6 months beta testing,have high grade components manufactured into a reliable, stable interface and then.....................6 months later a cheap version with crap software appears and it works with your software (not designed on purpose of course) You'd be :) :)

[spotblaster]

This looks familiar!

 

http://www.chinesesource.com/details.cfm?I...7&cat_id=38

 

I wonder if they are still making them.

 

 

 

 

Spotblaster.