chinglnc Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 HI, I'm doing some research on "perception of tempo" when listening music by headphones or over the speakers. I have some sound engineer friends claimed that they "perceived tempo changes" when listening by headphone and over the speakers. When I meant by "tempo changes" here, is the "perception" the tempo of the music is different when you listen via headphones and speakers. (same piece of music) It might sound " this is impossbile", but personally, me and a few sound engineers do perceive some "Tempo changes" when listening by headphones and speakers. It's not a Drastic Tempo Changes, just the "perception" of the tempo is different, either listening by headphones are faster; listening over speakers are slower or vice verses. "perception of tempo change"= e.g. Original music - 120 bmp; Listening over speakers - perceived 120bmp; Listening by headphones- perceived 125bmp But certainly we are not sure how many ppl out there perceive the same oracles or similar experience. just wondering any of you hv similar experience?? p.s- I need to emphasize that is the "perception" of tempo is changing, and not the actual tempo of music is changing Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light Console Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 Could it be the slight delay from your speakers to where you are listening, compared to the headphones right next to your ears? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinglnc Posted February 11, 2008 Author Share Posted February 11, 2008 Could it be the slight delay from your speakers to where you are listening, compared to the headphones right next to your ears? Mmm..how should I say abt this.....it's hard to explain in word what did I mean by "perception of tempo changes"...it's not about technical issues at all, what I was talking is a same piece of music, playing with headphones and over speakers at the same time... well, there is another way to "perceive the tempo changes"....could you try it if you are free?? 1. Get a piece of music that you really know well, with prominent rhythm sections, and fast tempo (130bpm and above) 2. try to "cover" or "close" your tragus (http://www.infovisual.info/03/048_en.html) while listening, also try with your pinna (or simply to say, try to cover/open different parts of your ears) 3. Stand further way from your speakers, or simply go out of your rooms, shut the door and listen from outside, you could try to walk further away from your room , see if there is any perception of tempo changing. (this part you don't hv to do steps 2) do the listening tests over speakers only. The perception of tempo change sounds very prominent to me. So, wondering if any of you guys hv the similar perception? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ83 Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 OK time to put the olde thinking cap on and do some speculating. I cannot prove any of this it is just a few thoughts as to what I would maybe look into (these may well be completely wrong!) Idea (1)If you are listening to speakers in a hall then the sound waves coming out have chance to 'breathe', you get the acoustics of the room and all the harmonic frequencies mixed in with the original sound giving a muddier and more complex sound wave.When listening using headphones then the original sound is only affected by the characteristics of the (much smaller) speakers giving a much cleaner, crisp sound to the ears.With the muddier sound the brain has to think and analyse where the exact beat is based on the previous ones. There is no single peak in the wave defining the exact beat. With the headphones the beat will be more pronounced as it has a shorter duration and so the brain perceives it as being faster.I'm thinking along the lines of hitting an empty coke can with a pen ___/\___ and then with a pen wrapped in cotton wool ___/^^\___. If every beat of the music is fuzzy then for a few beats a slightly faster or slower tempo would still sound to match.I can notice a similar effect with my PC speakers. If I listen with surround sound on (muddier overall sound) for a while and then turn it off so I just hear the two front speakers it does feel to speed up. Idea (2)Most common headphones (iPod type) have relatively tiny speakers compared to PA or even standard computer ones. These cannot handle the bass frequencies as well so you end up listening to music that is quite 'treble strong'. We know higher freq. are picked out and stimulate the brain/ears more (e.g. police sirens) so could it just be, because of this added stimulus the brain perceives it to be faster? Hope some of this makes sense even if it's a load of babble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinglnc Posted February 11, 2008 Author Share Posted February 11, 2008 haha..I particularly like this part [I'm thinking along the lines of hitting an empty coke can with a pen ___/\___ and then with a pen wrapped in cotton wool ___/^^\___. ] how would you explain if the perception in headphones are slower and not faster?? but I quite like the surround vs stereo idea........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ83 Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 haha..I particularly like this part [I'm thinking along the lines of hitting an empty coke can with a pen ___/\___ and then with a pen wrapped in cotton wool ___/^^\___. ]It was supposed to be a sound wave (or at least half of). I've never come across the sound perception to be slower in the headphones which is why I didn't address it, it's always been the other way round. I should add that this is from the point of view of a musician not a trained sound/acoustic engineer. I've come across this scenario a few times when using IEM/headphones, it can be very off-putting when I'm the drummer providing the beat! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinglnc Posted February 11, 2008 Author Share Posted February 11, 2008 haha..I particularly like this part [I'm thinking along the lines of hitting an empty coke can with a pen ___/\___ and then with a pen wrapped in cotton wool ___/^^\___. ]It was supposed to be a sound wave (or at least half of). I've never come across the sound perception to be slower in the headphones which is why I didn't address it, it's always been the other way round. I should add that this is from the point of view of a musician not a trained sound/acoustic engineer. I've come across this scenario a few times when using IEM/headphones, it can be very off-putting when I'm the drummer providing the beat! eh...that sounds interesting to me...u perceived the difference whilst you are playing in a live band or during recording or? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ83 Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 When live it's more a problem with the delay between the speakers (FOH, monitors and IEM) and also what you feel through your body. Again you are getting a muddy, complex mix and the brain has to find the beat in there somewhere. In this scenario two different musicians may well pickup two slightly different beats and that is when experience hopefully comes in or else you end up sounding like a primary school band. You can be deaf in your ears and still 'hear' or rather feel the music. Maybe have a look at this video by Evelyn Glennie if you are interested in that aspect of it.Your body feels the music, the brain interprets the feelings and then it determines how to perceive it as sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyro_gearloose Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 I wonder if this perception of tempo explains the behaviour of a large group of people all trying clap in time to a piece of music. I have noticed that whenever audiences clap along to music their tempo seems to invariably drop behind that of the music. This seems strange to me as most people have no problem keeping time by themselves, but put them in a group and their collective time keeping ablilities go out of the window. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potassium Neuf Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 You also tend to get this is large sports stadiums when they are singing the national anthems ... the crowd always seems to be that little bit slower and behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelxbloke Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 You also tend to get this is large sports stadiums when they are singing the national anthems ... the crowd always seems to be that little bit slower and behind. I always thought this was caused by people trying to follow echoes of the prevoius line of song etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Lewis Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 OK... a few thoughts. - speaker placement, room reflections, arrival times etc. may not deliver clear beat definition in high bpm music, compared with direct sound from headphones? - some effect taking place with regards to the change in Interaural Time Difference and Interaural Intensity Difference? - some level effect due to the proximity of the headphones, or the listening level? (there is a known correlation between pitch and loudness). My colleagues who research into audio perception haven't come across a link such as you mention. That's not to say it isn't real .... Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinglnc Posted February 12, 2008 Author Share Posted February 12, 2008 OK... a few thoughts. - speaker placement, room reflections, arrival times etc. may not deliver clear beat definition in high bpm music, compared with direct sound from headphones? - some effect taking place with regards to the change in Interaural Time Difference and Interaural Intensity Difference? - some level effect due to the proximity of the headphones, or the listening level? (there is a known correlation between pitch and loudness). My colleagues who research into audio perception haven't come across a link such as you mention. That's not to say it isn't real .... Simon oh really....what is the topic that he/she researching now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Lewis Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 oh really....what is the topic that he/she researching now? This page may be a little out of date,but it will give you an idea of the work carried out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinglnc Posted February 12, 2008 Author Share Posted February 12, 2008 oh really....what is the topic that he/she researching now? This page may be a little out of date,but it will give you an idea of the work carried out... oh great!!! thanks a lot!! cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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