Tactile Surfaces on control desks

[Michael.James]

Hi

 

I am in the process of researching lighting desks for a personal project I’m doing.

 

I am in the process of building a simple to use lighting console.

 

Having spoken to a few people, and shown them Ideas and current development, I am getting a lot of positive feedback on the initial ideas.

 

However, one thing which is being reiterated, It needs to be flexible and have a good mixture of “software” and “hardware”.

 

My Initial plan was to build one big multi-touch screen, with custom software, no hardware apart from the PC, nothing for the operator to interact with, apart from the screen. As a research project this is great, as it could be very powerful at controlling fixtures and is using the latest technology.

 

However, in reality, a lot people like tactile surfaces. Take the iPhone as an example; some people struggle to use it, because it doesn’t have buttons, so the user can’t get instant feedback.

 

The reason I am posting, is to ask of your opinions on the matter. What desks on the market do you feel have the right combination?

 

How do you label up bump buttons? Would you find a mass of macro keys like on the Strand Palette VL confusing? Would you be instantly able to locate an important key? How would you label it?

 

I really appreciate any feedback that you are willing to give.

 

Sincerely yours

 

Michael.

 

p.s. I know this sounds a lot like coursework, which Im asking you to do for me, but I assure you it isnt. I am working on a project in my own time, as a hobbie.

[Nick S]

Hmmm...a lighting desk with a huge touch screen which can be instantly re-configured to provide tactile feedback....

[niclights]

I find the preference depends on application. ie. Theatre/touring/house/busk etc.

 

Personally, mostly busking different rock'n'roll shows every day with limited time I am very much in favour of tactile. I do not like touch screens at all, or at least not for operating. I want to be looking at the stage, not at a screen, and need to have as many dedicated buttons as possible. Labeling for me is not crucial and can simply be done with tape/pen - this is also faster than typing and can include pictures and colours (both things I use regularly). These are the main reasons I prefer Avo desks, currently finding the Expert is my ideal control.

[gareth]

However, in reality, a lot people like tactile surfaces. Take the iPhone as an example; some people struggle to use it, because it doesn’t have buttons, so the user can’t get instant feedback.

A very valid point, IMO. 'Soft' buttons on a touchscreen have their place - but for an intensive session of programming they'd get very annoying very quickly. You need solid tactile buttons. The keytop needs to be the right shape and size (not flat, and no smaller than the keys on a typical PC keyboard), there needs to be the right amount of travel (not too much, but not too little), the right amount of tactile feedback (a little bit of resistance to let the user know that they've pressed something), and the layout needs to be right for the way the desk is programmed. The "schadow" type clicky-buttons that pivot at one end (as used on the Frog range) are NOT good! Try to find an 'old' and 'new' Strand 500-series desk and compare the keys on the two - the old ones weren't too bad, but the changes that occured to the keytops in the transition to the 'new' style of desk illustrate several of the above points quite well.

 

How do you label up bump buttons?

With LCD soft labelling if the desk has that feature, otherwise with masking tape and a thin Sharpie.

 

Would you find a mass of macro keys like on the Strand Palette VL confusing? Would you be instantly able to locate an important key? How would you label it?[/size][/font]

Bingo! You've just identified the really stinky aspect of the new Strand desks. The control surface is littered with context-sensitive soft buttons and macro buttons, but there aren't any LCD displays adjacent to them to tell you what they do. Even the old 430s had LCD displays above the 12 softkeys, so the new desks are a big step backwards in that respect. If you want to see how softkey legending should be done, have a look at the ETC Eos.

[Big Jay]

If you want to see how softkey legending should be done, have a look at the ETC Eos.

 

 

I completley agree with Gareth in the EOS, ETC obviously did there homework and went out to see what op's/designers want in a desk and they came up with the EOS, if I was ever busking a show, the EOS would be my choice.

[Steve Cavill]

My Initial plan was to build one big multi-touch screen, with custom software, no hardware apart from the PC, nothing for the operator to interact with, apart from the screen. As a research project this is great, as it could be very powerful at controlling fixtures and is using the latest technology.

 

There are already loads of PC based controllers on the market, which can all be configured to use Touch Screens, which are in turn configurable to the users requirements.

 

While I understand what youre getting at with designing your own "easy to use" lighting desk, maybe its worth a much harder look at what is already out there, use some features from each to create something which could turn out to be better.

 

The one thing I could suggest with a PC based controller is one that will communicate with any of the USB-DMX boxes which are on the market, as many venues only have a certain box, which only communicates with the software it is supplied with.

[niclights]

The "schadow" type clicky-buttons that pivot at one end (as used on the Frog range) are NOT good

 

I must disagree! For me these are the very best buttons for programming and operation. They feel just right with positive action and are incredibly durable. In contrast I hate the Hog style keys. But it's just personal preference of course. The worst IMO had to be the big old zero 88 buttons.

[Congo]

Good afternoon Michael

 

A large Touch screen and Faders sounds just like the Jands Vista or even a Tablet PC and a vista wing, or a tablet pc and a hog ipc wing,

I would suggest down loading both and having a play, both have virtual console windows and nearly all buttons and faders can be labeled.

at this present time the big down site to touch screens is one input at a time, so one fader or one button at a time so no busking unless you have real faders ie usb fader wings.

Differences between touch screens and tablet screens is button size on a touch screen like the hog and Grandma the interactive buttons have to be thumb or finger size, resulting in less buttons per screen.

Tablet screens, allow for far more buttons or interactive space at a higher resolution due to the size of the pen tip also most pens can have a right click.

the big BUT Dont loose the pen.

 

Having used both the Hog 2 and jands vista on a lot of shows there are pros and cons to both, but everyone is different you get used to either. The same goes for programming logic, those that love hog and Grandma tend to dislike Avo those that know and love Avo tend to hate Hog and Grandma, it what you know and feel comfortable with, which is why there tends to be a lot of brand loyalty.

 

realy they are just another tool, its a matter of using the right one for the right job,

 

Mark

[iamchristuffin]

A large Touch screen and Faders sounds just like the Jands Vista or even a Tablet PC and a vista wing, or a tablet pc and a hog ipc wing.

 

And the Chamsys MagicQ PC wing.

[Michael.James]

There are already loads of PC based controllers on the market, which can all be configured to use Touch Screens, which are in turn configurable to the users requirements

 

I don't plan on building this to be anything like ShowCad or DashLite. This project is currently not heading in that direction. I currently I feel the problem is PC based lighting control is the complete lack on tactile objects to interact with.

 

A large Touch screen and Faders sounds just like the Jands Vista or even a Tablet PC and a vista wing, or a tablet pc and a hog ipc wing.

 

I have purchased a dongle for the Jands Vista software although it doesn't get much use. I also have experience with the GrandMA. It's a very powerful desk indeed.

 

I know that on paper my project sounds like I am re-inventing the wheel.

 

However, I'm not building this for commercial success. I am building it to see what can be done with latest technology. The design for the GrandMA is 10 years old now, but what could the desk do if it had newer hardware in it?

 

My main goal in the project is to build a powerful lighting console which my Nan can use (her VCR still flashes 12.00). I am using technology such as the Microsoft Windows Presentation Foundation framework to build a rich user interface, which is intuitive.

 

Although I am programming the software on windows, it will run in an embedded environment, just like the Pearl Expert.

 

My reason for asking about tactile control surface is after talking to lighting programmers and operators; they say that they prefer to have buttons. I however, don't know huge amounts of programmers and wanted a wider audience to gauge if this was standard within the industry.

 

I am now looking at the ETC EOS as a good example of what lighting desks can do. This does appear to be a very powerful and easy to use desk.

 

Thank you for your input so far.

 

Regards

 

Michael

[Congo]

I would also suggest looking back in time at the old icon and artisan desks, lots of physical LCD buttons, also the virtuoso

 

 

Mark

[JMC]

RE the Schadow buttons.. I find it depends on the type of desk. For Avo consoles, I find them perfect, but that's because there's very little command line operation to be done at high speed, unlike the 500 series. On an "old" 500 series, I'm very much more prone to op error when programming at full tilt, and much much less likely to do so on a "new" 500 series.

 

In short;

 

Schadow: Good for bump buttons, swop/select/page/macro buttons. Things which you press relatively infrequently, but need to know *for sure* that you've hit it. And hit it exactly the right number of times.

500 Series Style: Ideal for superfast command line.

[Wol]

The "schadow" type clicky-buttons that pivot at one end (as used on the Frog range) are NOT good

 

I must disagree! .... The worst IMO had to be the big old zero 88 buttons.

 

Seconded completely. The schadow buttons are very nice. Knowing whether the button has actually been pressed is very helpful. For text entry, im assuming you will be using a standard computer keyboard?

 

Something I have also looked into a fair bit during LX console design, is the use of motorised faders, but by 'eck theyre tricky to find. Avolites D4 pilot is rather nice in this effect (and also has the schadow clicky buttons too ;-) ). Especially for standard intensity levels, I would prefer to have several faders, which can be easily reconfigured for different things, as you have a sense of one level relative to the other and the ability to reload values to alter them. However, encoder wheels are also helpful for other attributes, mainly of moving light stuff. Although essentially what I'm describing is the Avo D4!

 

On the note of touchscreens, pressure sensitive touchscreens are a lot nicer than capacitive ones, so you can touch them with a pen / stylus, rather than having to touch it with the end of a finger ( one of the annoyances I do have against the iPhone is that you do have to smoosh your finger all over it).

 

Chamsys MagicQ software, IMO, is.... dubious, mainly w.r.t the windows popping up and half disappearing. The maxiwing is nice, although the faders are a bit... loose / easy to slide.

 

One thing you have to remember, is that when using a computer, use the fact that there is ability to have a great interface, with graphs showing levels, ability to reorder states and edit them easily. Dont just imitate an old style lighting desk in software over and over again. The ETC EOS is the kind of thing I am on about here.

 

Out of interest, what language are you going to be coding in? I'm also guessing that you dont care at all about cross platform support, due to the use of the "Microsoft Windows Presentation Foundation framework". Although this is ringing alarm bells in my head. Especially words such as ".net framework", and "Vista". Remember lighting desks should be functional, and don't have to worry about having fun visual effects like OS X has!

[tvi675]

Chamsys MagicQ software, IMO, is.... dubious, mainly w.r.t the windows popping up and half disappearing. The maxiwing is nice, although the faders are a bit... loose / easy to slide.

 

Not wanting to drag this OT but please can you PM me with details of the problems you are having with the windows? It is possible that you have altered the window size to half the screen, but beyond that there is no known issue with the windowing.

 

Thanks,

 

Matt

[Chubbs the Techie]

I certainly prefer tactile controls;

The main reason is that I (and I'm sure others) are sometimes put in the situation where you have to do multiple tasks, most often for me doing sound and light cues by myself at the same time. Fiddling around with touch screens and other such non tactile items I think makes it more difficult to watch for a cue, fade up some scene change music (for example) and trigger a lighting cue.

 

However I'm not sure if this in an issue as I don't know what level of market you're aiming at?

 

Just my thrupence worth :)