Double mic

[conan]

Hi,

 

What are the advantages of double micing a kik drum and snare drum? Also is it better to mic and DI a bass as ive seen a few engineers do this and wonderd why?

[lightsource]

Okay, a simple response, although the subject is a little more complex.....

 

Kick Drum......

 

There are 2 possible sounds you want to achive, that deep gut wrenching sound that travels through your legs, and ends up in your chest. The other is that higher 'click' sound, that is much higher in frequency.

 

We use an AKG D112, bass drum mic for the low frequencies, and a Shure SM57 for the higher ones. Mic placement is important, and mixing the 2 signals together should give the sound you actually want. Gates are handy as well!

 

Snare Drum,

 

We use 2x Shure PG56 on Snare, with phase invert on the Snare bottom mic. The snare top dosen't include any of the sound of the snare bottom, and both sound very different. Remember the spring assembly is only on the bottom of the snare, which gives it it's sound.

 

Bass Guitar,

 

Well we've done it all, DI only, SM57 on a speaker, PG52 on the bass cab, and SM57 on the mid cab.....

Depends on the sound you want to achieve, and the cabs used by the bass player. The main thing is to put comp on the bass guitar, whatever the source.... There's a lot of energy that needs controlling. :)

[Kevin Ross]

Another benefit is also it adds a level of redundancy in the system just in case you get one of the kick mics go down you can quickly bring the other one up and EQ it a bit and the show goes on.

 

Always a handy thing to have in case Murphy decides to pay your gig a visit with his law firm...... :)

[ferrisio]

In my previous career as a bass player, I always used to insist on a mic for my bass cab if it was anything other than a small venue, i.e. the majority of the bass sound FOH coming from the PA not our backline.

 

The reasoning for this was simple - I spent a lot of money on my all-valve Ampeg SVT bass amp, as I loved the sound of it through the matching 8x10" speaker cab. This sound included a slight overdrive, as well as two stages of compression - the valve amp, and the cab itself. Therefore a good, well-placed microphone (I had good results with the EV RE-20) would go a long way to replicating what I heard on stage through the PA, with surprising less EQ/processing required at the FOH desk, which is always a good sign.

 

The really great engineers tended to mic it up as a matter of course, the really bad ones would protest and give stupid reasons why it was a terrible idea. Usually persuading them to try it, and a simple A/Bing listening test worked wonders.

[david.elsbury]

Hmm, that's interesting. I would have to admit not bothering with a mic a lot of the time... but then I tend to deal with young bands, and church bands.... who don't always have the best bass rigs in the world.

 

David

[mervaka]

In my previous career as a bass player, I always used to insist on a mic for my bass cab if it was anything other than a small venue, i.e. the majority of the bass sound FOH coming from the PA not our backline.

 

The reasoning for this was simple - I spent a lot of money on my all-valve Ampeg SVT bass amp, as I loved the sound of it through the matching 8x10" speaker cab. This sound included a slight overdrive, as well as two stages of compression - the valve amp, and the cab itself. Therefore a good, well-placed microphone (I had good results with the EV RE-20) would go a long way to replicating what I heard on stage through the PA, with surprising less EQ/processing required at the FOH desk, which is always a good sign.

 

The really great engineers tended to mic it up as a matter of course, the really bad ones would protest and give stupid reasons why it was a terrible idea. Usually persuading them to try it, and a simple A/Bing listening test worked wonders.

 

to be fair, while I agree an RE-20 would sound awesome, its not something I'd lug around to every gig :) and to be fair, I'd get a little hot under the collar if I had a band member telling me how to do my job, regardless of whether it was a good idea or not.

[MarkPAman]

to be fair, I'd get a little hot under the collar if I had a band member telling me how to do my job, regardless of whether it was a good idea or not.

 

Some sound engineers are also in bands. Some sound engineers have been working in the industry since before you were born. Chill! :)

 

My attitude is usually to ask bands if there is a method they prefer to use. If I don't like their method I'll double up and use mine as well.

 

 

Edit: Horrible wrong sort of there instead of their!

[J Pearce]

I tend to do both on bass guitars if I have the resources available. I normally try to take the DI post pre-amp too.

DI'd bass tends to become useless if the bass player is using any distortion, as the sound needs a speaker to filter the top end down. I have used the DI to provide the bass end of the sound, then taken the treble and mid from the mic, using the desk EQ as a (very) crude crossover.

 

When I'm playing bass I often adjust the preamp during the set to tailor my sound to each song, and if I'm DI'd before the amp that doesn't change anything, and then it becomes a bit pointless me lugging round two big heavy black boxes.

 

As to double mic'ing drums, I sometimes double mic the snare, though I often find the phasing between the two mics means careful alignment is necessary, so I'll often rig both then pick the best one to use at the desk.

I've never double mic'd a kick drum, though I can see that there might be advantages in doing so.

[lightsource]

I tend to do both on bass guitars if I have the resources available. [sNIP]

Just to go a little further on this post...

 

I'm currently working with a band called Spheres (www.myspace.com/spherestheband)... sorry for the plug :)

 

The bass guitarist has 2 cabs, a sub, and a mid cab and I route (via the console) the sub cab to the PA Subs, and the mid's to the PA mid tops. Works well via a DBX 266 comp. Wouldn't consider a DI for this band.

 

Though other bands are different.

 

As well as thundering bass sounds, the bassist also does lead solos, slap method. So this combination works well !

 

With respect to the drummer, one song in particular (Parable) requires a 'kettle' sound on the intro, and using the snare bottom mic on it's own pretty much achives the sound I want, bringing the snare top mic back up in the body of the song.

 

It's little 'tweaks' like this that can really make a difference in a band's live sound.

 

As far as double micing goes, the source material, needs to be thought out, What sound do I want to achieve, is the question with any particular instrument, If one mic will do, then go for it. If it won't, then don't :P

 

Hope this helps.

[NeilW]

As I had a recording "engineer" comment to me this summer...you're obviously miking the kick drum in stereo so we'll just take one of those lines! :P :)

 

Neil

[paulears]

Some sensble stuff here. Much depends on the combination of PA and person mixing coupled with the ability and experience of the musicians. If the aim is to treat the audience to the highest quality reproduction of the sound produced by the players instruments the some of the techniques here are worth trying. The next bit will ramble a bit (as my posts often do).

 

Bass

 

Player turns up with battered fender precision copy in a nylon bag and a small Peavey amp, covered with a plastic bag. Pretty well without thinking, I'll jam a DI onto the XLR cable I have already wired in.

 

Player turns up with flight cased hand built 6 string bass and a Eden David amp and cab. Ask the player if he would like me to DI or mic it up, or maybe both - and they'll tell me what they prefer - and I take their advice without question.

 

Drummer turns up with a £250 kit and a few dustbin lids (or look alikes) from the local music shop. "What kind of sound do you like?" returns "awesome". I comply. Awesome means in this case whatever already beaten up dynamics are in the mic box, that will survive the abuse they are about to get. If there's a hole in the front skin, then a 112 inside on a bit of black tat will be fine. Snare wise, I'll risk a stand mounted 57 on, but a little further away from the rim than usual. Sound check will be kick, snare, hats, toms and OH - and eq'd to not sound too boomy. No attempt to use gates or compression.

 

 

Drummer turns up with amazing DW kit and plenty of nice shiny metalwork - drummer sees you coming and says just use the XLRs on the shells, but it would be nice to have a 57 top and condenser on the bottom of the snare. You suggest a couple of nice condensers on the overheads and they smile. Offer outboard, but don't be surprised if they say they doubt it will be needed - apart from some tight gates on song XXX 3rd number, 1st set, and a long reverb on the snare for song XXX 1st number second set. They might also ask for a particular kind of kick drum sound - so you can have a think about how to do it. (Not thought about 2 mics? may well try this one).

 

Guitars I'll mic up automatically - with a suitable mic for the kit/style of music they play.

 

If the musicians are decent, then I will spend extra time to make it sound as good as I can. If the band are sonically rubbish before I get to work, then I'll try to work a system that gives me a bit more control and balance - but sometimes I'll admit to giving up. If I ask the drummer if he needs to tune the toms and he says "what for" then I don't go any further - ever noticed how some people tune their toms to an actual pitch? - or don't notice their guitars are out of tune? Scary, really.

 

Sometimes I tend to think younger and less experienced bands are like prog jazz musicians. They start and finish at the same time, but are almost unaware there are any others on stage at all! Long guitar straps mean that in most cases, they'd only realise their audience had gone to the bar at the end of the song, when they look up.

[lightsource]

They'd only realise their audience had gone to the bar at the end of the song, when they look up.

 

Or even actually face the audience. Unfortunatley, I've done quite a few gigs where most of the time, the band face the drummer, showing only their ars*s to the audience.

 

Some haven't a clue, what's going on on the other side of the monitors :)

[charlyfarly]

Long guitar straps mean that in most cases, they'd only realise their audience had gone to the bar at the end of the song, when they look up.

Love it!

 

Unfortunatley, I've done quite a few gigs where most of the time, the band face the drummer, showing only their ars*s to the audience.

Ah! "Rehearsal Room Syndrome" :)

 

It's all down to experience. Some young bands are thrown in quite literally at the deep end, barely even touching the "travelling in a transit and playing grotty dives route". It may be exciting to play large gigs and festivals straight off but they have never done the important bit; how to get a bunch of disinterested punters into your music and with that comes the art of working an audience and stage presence.

Sadly I see a lot of acts where the punters know the song because it has been pushed hard on the radio or whatever but the band are like statues on stage, quite literally like a rabbit caught in car headlights. Bless 'em.

 

Now double miking:

Bass drum; usually a well tuned drum and an SM91 is sufficient but I'll add another mic if the show is being recorded for album material.

Bass guitar: DI off the bass and mic the cabinet. If the sound coming out of the cabinet is a farting mess, I'll quietly leave it out of the mix.

Guitar: Mic the cabinet and use a speaker simulator DI, then I can fatten the sound or do certain panning effects etc.

[benweblight]

I've also seen engineers using both a b52 and sm57 on a guitar cab, to pickup the different frequencies.

[mervaka]

if I see an amp I've never seen before, then I'll ask the guy to play some stuff. I'll then stick my head around different parts and listen out for a sweet spot :)