Speakon + Harting/Socapex?

[ceecrb1]

Ok kinda looking to start a long running and never ending debate..

 

Theres ideas flying around our company with the suggestion of adapting ONE harting-8x"13a" bar (in " as were in europe so its shucko) and ONE 13a x 8 - harting spider.

The modification thats being argued over is taking 2 13's away and adding Speakon (for clarity: speaker, NOT powerlock).

 

Obviously the debate were having is the effects of the dimmers and lighing cables creating (or not) inverference/noise in the speakers.

 

SO.

is this worth doing or is it just a waste of time and keep throwing our the extra speaker cable?

 

or equally... is it better (this is my point of view) to make a 4 cored speaker cable, and 2 splitters (obviously all just use of speakon so damn easy) so its only running one cable but the 2 signals.

 

edit to add: the general idea is that harting-harting cant mess up channels and blow things up.. but I'm arguing with them that we CAN mix up which harting is which harting when there are more than one)

[adamharman]

I'd tend to agree with you that it's too easy to mix things up if you had more than one harting.

 

As all the cable is mains rated, I suppose it's not "dangerous" as such, but I wouldn't do it myself.

[ceecrb1]

Also forgot to add:

in our case we have NO 4 cored speaker cables so its also an issue of me trying to convince the tech manager to buy a load of cable as opposed to just soldering conncetors we already have onto things we already have.

[peternewman]

I believe quite a few of the people who use Soca/Lecci for multiple speaker runs run it backwards, which obviously gives a slight risk of shock, due to the exposed connectors connected to the amps, but obviously reduces the risk of cross plugging, as the ends won't make so much sense. N.B. I'm only talking about running speaker only lines backwards. I'd never recommend running a power line backwards. If you search here, there are some more general discussions of using Soca/Lecci for speaker runs, which will obviously raise relevant issues, then it's a case of an risk assessment or similar to consider how the issues impact on also running power down the same connector.

[ceecrb1]

I think your thinking along different lines..

 

I get the feeling you understand I am saying using an entire harting/soca for an array of speakers.

 

I'm talking about using one harting/soca with 6 channels lighing and 2 for speakers

 

basically for those jobs where you bung a line of truss in the roof and slap 2 speakers up there as well.

 

perfect example: This weekends job

 

we had problems with the sound system here was just badly spec'd and a topic which keeps comming up is putting 2 more speakers on the truss to fill.

[RobertKendall]

ok??????

 

 

please correct me if im really not understanding!!!!!!!

 

so.... an example of what your talking about would be.....

 

6 way soca (2 ways of speaker/4 ways of dimming)

which would mean you need fan ins/outs consisting of 2xspeakon + 4x15a/16a??

 

eg - soca1=audio, soca2=audio, soca3=dimming, soca4=dimming, soca5=dimming, soca6=dimming.

 

So when I come along and plug a regular 15a fan in to your 15m soca, then plug it to you dimmers - ch1/ch2 on you dimmer rack are connected to you speakers on you FOH truss??

 

 

 

 

please do say if iv lost the plot!! :** laughs out loud **:

[Shez]

I think your thinking along different lines..

 

I'm talking about using one harting/soca with 6 channels lighing and 2 for speakers

 

That was clear to me from your original post. I wouldn't be happy using using a socca / harting with a mixture of mains & speakers on it. Things will ocassionally be misplugged and I suspect you wouldn't need to blow up more than one pair of speakers before the reasons for this being a bad idea become apparent.

Buying some four core speaker cable with appropriate speakons would be the way I'd suggest doing it.

[Shaggy]

While I would be very surprised if there was any interference induced in the speakers, I would only be 100% happy doing this if everyone involved with the lighting on the gig was aware of the speaker lines. Perhaps some sort of permanent warning label would help. Another thing that could cause problems is if any cables had been built with a common earth as I believe some Soca is. So while I am sure it could work, I think the only way you will find if it is a bad idea is by trying it which could prove a little expensive.

[peternewman]

I think your thinking along different lines..

 

I get the feeling you understand I am saying using an entire harting/soca for an array of speakers.

 

I'm talking about using one harting/soca with 6 channels lighing and 2 for speakers

I was sort of talking about both, previous uses I've seen have always been a full cable, so you can learn from the issues/protection they use and work out how it will transfer, if at all, to a mixed power and speaker multi.

 

Another thing that could cause problems is if any cables had been built with a common earth as I believe some Soca is.

I think the OP is just talking about swapping two power circuits for two speaker ones, so L&N can be a direct swap for +&- on the speaker. Also more specifically given he's talking about 8 circuit Harting, the earth only goes through the shell, so it wouldn't be an issue there, though obviously standard 6 circuit Soca could raise an issue. Although, and slightly OT here, surely best practise is to wire the extensions 1-1 and then just get the shell and earths commoned in the spider/distro/dimmer/IWB, then when you start doing odd things like 8 circuits/speaker only runs, it doesn't all blow up.

[avdavesound]

it would work but it seems like two much hassle, by the time you made the spiders it would probably be cheaper to buy a roll of 4core cable. and a lot less hassle

[ceecrb1]

Truth is we have the spiders, we have the bars to convert and we have the relavent speakon connectors

(more than enough to donate 1 or 2 for trial)

 

I've managed to "talk them down" to the more "dangerous" option of TRIAL first by making 2 sets of speakon - shucko (mains) convertors..

obviously we patch the speakers FIRST then patch the lights after so the danger of blowing the speakers is NILL and later tape/zip tie the "speaker" connectors together etc. (by shorting the MALE end of the spider cables 1 by one and using a continuity tester at the target end) Or equally leaving the bar exits unconnected and using a "voltstick" or voltmeter to find 2 connections as the spider is plugged into a hard mains for a moment.

.. not great but for a trial it cant be perfect.

 

equally we can prepare so that if it does not work we just run the normal 2 speaker cables.

 

for me the danger in a permanant change more seams to be, if we do this and run (for example) 6 harting lines back to the dimmers and they all drop from the structure at the same point (or more than one cable at the same point), how do we be sure which harting will be the converted one.. and if were running that many cables.. whats the difference in one more. (however I do preffer the idea of one more than 2 more!)

[cfmjohn]

I dont know, maybe ive got the wrong idea here BUT

 

if you run Mains power @ 230V for lighting & speaker signal down a multicore, you are going to get an induced voltage from the high voltage lines into the lines being used for Low Voltage speaker lines.

 

I was always warned to seperate power & signal as I once saw someone do something similar and ended up with a rather large induced voltage destroying a very expensive set of active spearers. So it might not be the best idea. Even with a passive system you risk damaging the amp if the induced voltage is too big.

 

 

just a thought, it might not produce "noise" as such but there will be induced voltages involved.

 

 

a humble students opinion

 

 

john

[Sam Whitehead]

justr read all the replies and what came into my head would be a speakon plug to 15/16 amp plug.then your standard spiders can be used and no need for special spiders etc. all right the lead would be dangerous plugged direct to mains etc but at least this way you have got more versaltilty.

[david.elsbury]

Sam, yes, and that's what the OP has made up for testing purposes, but that is stupid as a long term solution as there is a huge risk of cross plugging your speakers into mains,... especially late at night or when tired and not paying attention.

[benweblight]

what came into my head would be a speakon plug to 15/16 amp plug.then your standard spiders can be used and no need for special spiders etc.

 

Sounds like a very, very bad idea to me...unless your amps and speakers cost £5 and you don't mind breaking them in order to gain the added flexibility.