Under 16's

[robbie]

I've been lurking on and off for a while, and got round to registering (thanks for entry message). Quite a few posts on the amateurs in pro venues thread mentioned under 16's. Well, my son who's 12 got a letter from our local education authority, via the school. There are 3 places that under 16's cannot work under ANY circumstances.

 

1. Abatoirs (seems sensible)

2. Licenced premises (again, sensible)

3. THEATRES - !!!

 

The only exception is when the production has a cast of under 16's covered by a childrens licence - then under 16 stage crew can work, but if no kids on stage, they can't.

 

At the risk of opening up a can of worms again, I rather like amateurs hiring the venue I'm working at. They may have daft ideas, strange ways of doing things etc. but they care. many of the so called pro's don't care a to** about the show. In most cases, they are also 'seat of the pants' gigs, a hell of a lot more satisfying than reading a novel, and pressing go every now and again, without even having to look up!

[Bryson]

Thanks for that, robbie. (Welcome, BTW)

 

Would you mind posting the full text of the letter? Sounds very interesting and may well clear up a lot of queries for some of our members.

[Ike]

The employment of minors is actually a very complicated subject with many laws contradicting each other.

As well as the things you listed someone under 16 would not be able to:

1, Do anything not covered by the phrase 'light work' - this is usually taken to mean not physically demanding

2, Work before 7am or after 7 pm

3, Take any legal responsibility for pretty much anything they do at work.

 

If you are in a situation involving the employment of under 16s I strongly suggest you contact your local authority and get anything discussed in writing.

[Ike]

A quick guide

[robbie]

well, you asked, here is full text of section relating to theatres:

(I note there is also a 3m above ground height restiction, which I missed)

 

Prohibited employment

3. No child of any age may be employed -

a) in a cinema, theatre, discotheque, dance hall or night club, except in connection with a

performance given entirely by children; 1

b) to sell or deliver alcohol, except in sealed containers;

c) to deliver milk;

d) to deliver fuel oils;

e) in a commercial kitchen;

f) to collect or sort refuse;

g) in any work which is more than three metres above ground level or, in the case of internal work, more than three metres above floor level;

h) in employment involving harmful exposure to physical, biological or chemical agents;

I) to collect money or to sell or canvass door to door, except under the supervision of an adult;

j) in work involving exposure to adult material or in situations which are for this reason

otherwise unsuitable for children;

k) in telephone sales;

l) in any slaughterhouse or in that part of any butcher’s shop or other premises connected with

the killing of livestock, butchery, or the preparation of carcasses or meat for sale;

m) as an attendant or assistant in a fairground or amusement arcade or in any other premises

used for the purpose of public amusement by means of automatic machines, games of

chance or skill or similar devices;

n) in the personal care of residents of any residential care home or nursing home unless under

the supervision of a responsible adult.

[Bryson]

Very interesting - I wonder which law they are quoting. It can't be entirely correct though - there are child performers in pro shows which certainly have adults in the cast too.

[Kevin Robertson]

Very interesting - I wonder which law they are quoting. It can't be entirely correct though - there are child performers in pro shows which certainly have adults in the cast too.

 

Children can appear alongside adults in productions with a childrens licence. These are not at all easy to get hold of.

In Les Mis, for instance, there are at least 3 child actors for each of the child roles and there are strict limits to the amounts of shows they can work.

The laws regarding children in theatres (and other industries), if broken can result in an unlimited fine and up to 10 years imprisonment. This is for the protection of the children. I understand that the theatre industry has it's glamour, and children want to learn. BUT, hear comes the can of worms, why should an untrained 12 year old operate a followspot for a week for a book token, when I could have that job? I know that that sounds harsh. But it would not happen in any other job. If some theatre managers could, they would have children doing the majority of the technical work (including cleaning the chimneys...) and a lot of us would be out of work.

I have a 14 year old daughter who used to regularly 'work' in a theatre on spots, she is not allowed to any more as the theatre got into trouble for it. I was a bit miffed when they wouldn't let her 'work' there any more. But the more I think about it, I think it is only in the kids best interest not to be exploited. The kids were occasionally working on pro shows and not getting paid for it. I am sure this happens around the country and it is up to us as responsible theatre practitioners to stamp it out.

[vinny baby]

I worked on a theatre show last year, where a big % of the cast were children, as far as im aware they could only work so many shows a week, and for that reason we had two child casts.

[Ike]

As Kevin said, in this situation the production company would need a childrens licence. For this to be granted a number of (usually very strict) conditions must be met. Much like an entertainments licence the conditions can vary.

[Suzette]

A question ... does the 'employment of minors regs' only come into force when you are actually paying them?

Obviously work experience is different and there are separate laws for work experience students, but what of the situation where an amateur company uses a child to operate a followspot for their musical for the week of their show.

 

Situation : the amateurs have hired a professional theatre for a week to put on their show, and in order to save themselves some money, they provide their own stage crew and spot ops, with the venue techs supervising onstage and op'ing lights and sound.

This child is the son/daughter of someone in the company so parent(s) are in the building with them. Is this child then subject to the employment laws, in which case work after 7pm is prohibited - bit tricky to op a spot when the show goes up at 7.30pm!

[Jon T]

Under 16's are also NOT allowed to work above 3 metres off the ground!

[ColinB]

Any Child can ONLY be in the Theatre for a limited number of Hours, if they are

any way involved with the production, be it onstage, front of house, backstage, etc.

 

The rules are complicated, and open to interpretation by every and any local authority, and every 'minor' MUST have a form completed by the local authority agreeing exactly times and dates they can be in the Theatre - and this is MANDATORY. Even if it's raining outside, if they have to be out of the Theatre, then out they have to go, otherwise, everyone involved is potentially liable to fines, and potentially worse. We have to work with four local authorities, filling in different forms for each authority - these have to be countersigned by the young persons School, and then authorised by the authority.

 

Whilst in the Theatre, a log MUST be kept of times in/out of the Theatre, start and

stop times of the shows, and this has to be compiled and sent to the authority after the event (to show you complied with the licence granted) They can, and will come round and inspect at any time, and you have to have licensed Matrons and Chaperones in a minimum ratio determined buy the Authority.

 

If you think it's Draconian - You're right, BUT it is there to prevent and monitor

possible exploitation af a young person, so..... is it so wrong.

 

Your local authority is the place to start, and they are normally happ to help,

especially if you are trying to do the right thing for the children.

 

And if you wonder about many amateur groups who 'just do it' and don't follow

the above - I'm afraid the local authorities will hit them hard in the next few years.

 

We have been doing it for the last four years - it isn't easy, and it's really frustrating chasing parents/teachers and local Authorities, but, it is now the LAW,

and those that don't do it, will be prosecuted one day.

 

Regards,

Colin.

[sam.henderson]

BUT, hear comes the can of worms, why should an untrained 12 year old operate a followspot for a week for a book token, when I could have that job?

Looking at it from the other side of the argument, A 12 year old if allowed to do followspotting will gain a lot of experiance from this. This also may sound harsh but what if they can do it better than you then surely it is in the interest of the Theatre to employ them instead of you and it will also provide the child with lots of good experience.

 

Sam

[Stu]

BUT, hear comes the can of worms, why should an untrained 12 year old operate a followspot for a week for a book token, when I could have that job?

Looking at it from the other side of the argument, A 12 year old if allowed to do followspotting will gain a lot of experiance from this. This also may sound harsh but what if they can do it better than you then surely it is in the interest of the Theatre to employ them instead of you and it will also provide the child with lots of good experience.

 

Sam

Sam,

 

Do you work full time in the industry? If so, would you be annoyed if you were being constantly replaced by a 12yr old kid? I know I would be... This industry is obviously here to support it's employees, and while obviously it's very good to bring people in on experience once in a while to supplement the exisiting crew, but I think on a regular basis it's a no-no. Not to mention the fact of their stringent employement conditions, maturity levels etc.

 

This isn't me being ageist or anything - as I say I quite welcome younguns to come in and learn once in a while, but I think for management it's a damn too easy option to have some kid in and pay them peanuts or not at all... It seems like unexperienced people being brought in over experienced staff (Cassies I mean here) is becoming more popular as it is...

 

Stu

[Djbarryblue]

The childrens licencing dose this still count if they are at school but are between 16-18 because our local council has always made this the case or is it bollox ? and what is the max time that they can be on stage for ?