Reporting incidents

[Roderick]

This discussion started in the Crew Room but I thought it deserved its own thread.

 

(Snip)

But at the end of the day I have a responsibility as an adult for my own actions and take that seriously. I will ensure my work is as safe as I can make it for others, guide others where appropriate, offer constructive criticism where needed and rectify hazards as I see them. But I will not support anyone who simply looks to make a fast buck out of their own stupidity or incompetence.

 

I think we are mixing two things here, reporting a small incident and sueing for stupidity.

I fully support Ynot in taking responsibility for his own actions, as we all should, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't report it. The fact that you did hurt yourself means that something was not quite right and, although this was only a small cut and not too serious, it is an indication that there are gaps in the procedures. That is not a big deal, it can be easily fixed IF everyone knows about it and that is why you report it. Not to complain, not to sue, not to put the blame somewhere else, just stating what happened to avoid it from happening again.

 

It also means that if you have a H&S person who does a serious job, they can see a pattern when it develops and review the situation before it gets worse. If every time a certain person builds a piece of scenery someone gets a cut, they may want to have a talk to that person and say: "Son, we love your work here but you really should be a bit more careful with the screws you use". That's all that is needed to avoid further problems.

 

My argument is: Report always but forget about the sueing

[gareth]

Agree - any incident in the workplace, however small, should be noted. Considering a minor incident in isolation might make it seem pretty insignificant, but if it's reported it might be one component of a larger pattern of incidents that reveal a fundamental problem with a particular activity or area of work. Let's say someone's rigged a piece of temporary scaff at head height off the side of a fly floor and it sticks out a little further than it should into the walkway. If four different people knock their heads on it as they pass, get a cut or bruise as a result, and report this as a minor incident to the person responsible for H&S within the building, it'll get flagged up as a problem and dealt with. If none of those four people report it, it'll just get left until person number five comes running along the fly floor a few days later (yes, I know, they shouldn't be running, but they didn't hear their call on the tannoy and they're rushing to get into position for their cue!), runs headlong into the protruding piece of scaff, and knocks themselves out cold.

[Ynot]

On the whole, I would agree entirely with what's been said thus far, and with that in mind, OK, maybe I could/should have recorded the 2mm (just measured it!!) scrape on my hand, but where the principle falls down is that any H & S policy HAS to be based on common sense. This is unfortunately something sadly lacking in many these days, especially those who suffer from their stupidity and decide to go for a payout...

 

Incidentally, in the case I raised, I suffered, I cursed (quietly of course, to prevent any passing young ears from being scarred for life by my profanity) I adjusted my technique (ie picked up the piece of timber again differently so I didn't repeat the error) and when I reached the destination (ie store point) I dealt with the hazard.

 

Again - simple.

Safety circle completed.

 

In any case where a hzard would/might cause future injury/risk to others, then I would similarly carry out dynamic RA and deal as appropriate.

Still not sure that I'd log even the smallest thing in the accident book. Like I say - common sense SHOULD dictate what is and isn't recorded.

 

TD

[paulears]

I've been thinking about this one, and kind of lean both ways - then change my mind.

 

Trends are important, so using the screw protruding example, we've all done this one, initially, I was thinking that a simple accident book style system would be sensible - record all the small issues to see if they keep getting repeated so you can stop it. Then it occured to me that this book could also be used in the mad craze for "have you had an accident" claims - it would make excellent evidence. So a system designed to make the workplace safer could also be just the thing to 'hang' the company in court, and by implication, the employee who was involved. Gareth's example of the overlength screw problem - would work great, the person having the required tap on the shoulder - but if somebody had an accident, then the implications go much further. The reporting of incidents internally and externally if serious enough is a vital tool to increase safety - but could be troublesome. I'l also not sure if it works in reverse? All these daft claims we hear about, plus the ones we don't - worry me. I was involved in one during the last year - hour long interviews on the phone, witness statements etc etc - but then it went quiet. I emailed the solicitors who didn't reply, and I contacted the company I worked for asking if the claim had been settled or disputed, and got a strange "There is no information we have available to give to you" reply. The grapevine is that they settled and had a gagging clause built in - so any lessons that could have been learnt won't happen. So the compensation culture seems to have no link whateoever with improving safety - which I reckon is wrong. It would be interesting to know if the HSE are privy to the contents of these claims if they are settled out of court, as I guess most are.

[Andrew C]

Having spent the week-end wrecking perfectly good trees and turning them into a set...

 

Several splinters:- Probably don't need reporting, unless particularly nasty. Can't do anything about wood having a grain etc

Protruding screws:- Needs reporting, as something can be done to reduce the risk. Use shorter screws, or slap the chippy who didn't remove them on set-break.

Gloves mighthelp in either case, but could make accurate, delicate work difficult.

 

As to the claim culture, and the insurance companies caving in on frivolous claims; you need to remember that the insurers are not there to protect you, but to make money for their share holders. They don't give a twopenny damn if your premiums keep rising, quite the opposite... :huh:

[Seano]

Let's say someone's rigged a piece of temporary scaff at head height off the side of a fly floor and it sticks out a little further than it should into the walkway. If four different people knock their heads on it as they pass, get a cut or bruise as a result, and report this as a minor incident to the person responsible for H&S within the building, it'll get flagged up as a problem and dealt with. If none of those four people report it, it'll just get left until person number five comes running along the fly floor a few days later (yes, I know, they shouldn't be running, but they didn't hear their call on the tannoy and they're rushing to get into position for their cue!), runs headlong into the protruding piece of scaff, and knocks themselves out cold.

 

Who are all these numpties on the fly floor? If four different people bang their heads on this hypothetical bit of scaff and not one of them does anything about it, there are problems with the crew that extra paperwork is not going to solve.

With a half-way sensible crew it works like this: The first person knocks his head, that person then sorts out the problem. (Or goes and finds someone who can sort out the problem and says 'oi'.) Major incident averted, as well as the other 3 minor ones, no paperwork required.

 

This 'minor incident reporting' thing is a bad idea. Here's where it leads:

 

Every time someone bangs a thumb with a hammer it gets written down.

Log analysed by overzealous pencil pusher.*

Problem identified - infrequent but persistent banging of thumbs with hammers. Action must be taken before a more serious incident occurs.

The new HSE approved 'Passport to your Toolbox / Hand Tool Licence' introduced as a requirement for all crew. The venue pays for training for full-timers. All cassies and freelancers must provide their own, at a cost of £100 plus and one day of their life. (To be repeated every 3 years.)

Banging of thumbs with hammers continues because its just something that happens. Amazingly, supplementing years of daily experience with one expensive day bored out of your skull watching meaningless powerpoint presentations does nothing to change that.

 

* 'Person responsible for H&S' is a job like policeman or politician: with a few honourable exceptions, anyone who wants this job is generally the last person who should be allowed to do it.

 

Genuine safety in the workplace (as opposed to the 'looks good on paper' CYA variety) is a cultural thing. It stems from people spontaneously taking responsibility for things. "Oh, that's a problem, I'll sort that out." vs "That's a problem, someone needs to sort that out". We are not the construction industry, when we adopt measures that they have decided are sensible - but which for us merely lower morale and move people away from that first attitude and towards the second - we are moving in the wrong direction. And having done so, its almost impossible to get back what we lose in the process.

[JimWebber]

Good point Sean, as always, but I think we need to clarify the purpose of your hypothetical 'Passport to your Toolbox / Hand Tool Licence'

 

Such a licence would have NOTHING to do with stopping people hitting their thumbs with hammers, nor is it intended to. The sole purpose of said licence would be so that in this compensation hungry culture of ours, when the company/theatre is being sued for an employees loss of texting ability, they can turn round and say "We took every precaution to stop Mr. xxxxx hitting his thumb, therefore it is his fault, not ours.

 

In my day job, every two years, I have to undertake "Equality and Diversity training" It is not to stop me saying or doing anything I shouldn't, but merely to indemnify my employer if I do...

 

 

Jim

[Ynot]

This 'minor incident reporting' thing is a bad idea. Here's where it leads:

 

Every time someone bangs a thumb with a hammer it gets written down.

Log analysed by overzealous pencil pusher.*

Problem identified - infrequent but persistent banging of thumbs with hammers. Action must be taken before a more serious incident occurs. <snip>

That's precisely it.

That is why the likes of these fascistas who've gotten away with effectively banning a bubble machine have, well, got away with it...

Genuine safety in the workplace (as opposed to the 'looks good on paper' CYA variety) is a cultural thing. It stems from people spontaneously taking responsibility for things. "Oh, that's a problem, I'll sort that out." vs "That's a problem, someone needs to sort that out".

Again, you've hit the nail on the head (bad pun intended... :))

If I had a quid for every time someone in our voluntary venue has said "What the theatre needs to do is...." or some such, I'd be incredibly rich!

[djw1981]

But some note should be made so that the chippy, or even Ynot when he gets a moment, can go back to this bit of scenery and remove the protruding screw so the incident is not repeated. The accident book could be a backstage thing which is looked after by the head-tech. You can also look for patterns of accidents - the same type, the same time of day, location or person and look to mitigate. For example, people falling downstairs may need something a s simple as glo-in the- dark tape on each step edge, or an extra workers light directly above the steps.

[paulears]

At the moment if somebody says "Fred's off ill - got a septic finger" That is about it. If the management called in the head technician and asked to see the book, or even ask if there was one, what would you do? Ah - Fred's septic finger was caused by Harry, was it? Get him in and let's see what explanation he can give"

 

"Harry, two years ago you built some scenery, and you used a screw that was too long, and Fred's in hospital because he picked up the flat and it went into his finger!!

 

Ok - I realise it's probably a dumb example - but what if Harry was already on his final written warning? Bye bye Harry?

[Andrew C]

Ok - I realise it's probably a dumb example - but what if Harry was already on his final written warning? Bye bye Harry?

To take your dumb example and run with it.

 

What if it is on record that Harry has been told several / dozens of times to use 40mm rather than 70mm screw to join two bits of 2x1, and that several people have had "minors" over the years due to his intransigence. Better he goes now, or after someone's wrist is opened, and nerves, arteries and tendons get shredded?

[paulears]

yes - but then the disciplinary system is directly linked to the accident reporting system, and as a result, people are unlikely to be honest. In my silly example - if it's well known Harry is on the hit list (for good reasons or bad) then whoever reports a minor incident will be used as the trigger. Safety systems are not supposed to be like this. As I understand it the point of having a reporting system is to enable accidents to be reduced, or stopped completely. I'm for an effective reporting system, but not when it serves two purposes. I'd imagine the unions would also have some reservations?

[Ynot]

But some note should be made so that the chippy, or even Ynot when he gets a moment, can go back to this bit of scenery and remove the protruding screw so the incident is not repeated.

In this type of case, no. There's little point in noting the fact that there was a screw protruding because that will lead to a delay in sorting the actual hazard.

 

My mantra is and always has been "Problems should be tackled by those who discover them".

That does NOT necessarily mean that the person can in every situation deal with an issue, because they may not have the skills, but they should take the responsibility (key word there) of tackling it.

 

OK - in the real world there are and will be things that get left for someone else to do, and consequently that can take time before it gets sorted. But simply writing it in a book is unlikely to raise the priority or even ensure it gets done.

 

In my venue I have the oft-broadcast 'list'.

That covers ALL aspects of jobs needed to be done, be they general repairs, installs, improvements or safety issues. The list grows faster than it contracts because in a voluntary theatre, it is probably far longer than a pro-house because we don't always have those with skills on tap to tackle the more technical tasks, but safety items do tend to get higher priority,.

[ceecrb1]

#To me this example still directly gives a person to blame.. harry... wether he was told not to use screws to long or not.. it still shouldnt be done... protruding points are a no-no... and obvious..

IE.. clear stupidity..

 

where I start to rant is when people make legal claims and a huge fuss over GENUINE honest accidents... some times they DO just happen with all the safety procedures and risk assesements in the world, sh1% happens

 

To me it SHOULD all come down to this..

 

do your job properly in all aspects and legally everything should be ok. (moral issues are for another day)

 

 

I'm discovering the delight of working in Events in Spain.... (3rd week) having moved here, been in events all my life..

Here has no PAT tests (but imaculate cables and equipment), no risk assesements, no fear of sueing, no insain need for a specific qualification for every little task. BUT the thing is, the job is THE SAME, the technitians have the same respect of danger, the same respect for people, equipment and the job and IDENTICAL rules on safety, just none of the stress of paperwork or fear of the next legal case!

I'm learning that its really just a social thing and nothing to do with our industry specifically..

 

thats not to say I dont see the odd thing that makes me sweat a little, like the pyrotecnics who set off 10kg of fireworks in a dry pine forrest just dropping the pyros onto the floor COVERED in dry, brown pine needles to celebrate the opening of an open-air nightclub... look everyone pretty fireworks, oh and now fire and ooooooo no eyebrows!!

[Roderick]

I am surprised, and quite frankly a little disappointed, that almost everyone seems to focus on the result and not the cause.

Whether it is Tony's screw or Seano's bit of scaff, of course you would fix it, but that wouldn't fix the reason it was there in the first place and as a result could be back there the next day.

Maybe the chippy used 70mm screws because that is the only size the workshop buys in which case you want to have a word with the purchasing department. But if no one tells them they are buying the wrong size screws or an incorrect range of screws the problem will repeat itself.

Similarly with Seano's bit of scaff, somebody put it there for a reason, can't image a bit of scaff attaching itself somewhere, so if you just remove the bit of scaff there is nothing to stop it from happening again. A simple word with whoever put it there explaining the dangers of their actions would go a long way.

Education is the only way we will improve the overall safety within our profession and industry.

 

And do we really think that now commonly accepted practises such as PAT or even a safety bond would have come into play if no-one ever reported being zapped or nearly hit by a falling light?

I still believe that reporting helps uncovering underlying problems that can only grow if not discovered early on. Most of those will not be obvious until you start put the bits of the jigsaw together.

 

And about using the reporting system as a disciplinary measure, I think that is a bit over the top. But if Harry's actions keeps sending people to hospital then maybe it would be better he started looking for another career, or be send for some training to improve his skills. Education!