Dad needs basic help!

[MXDAD]

I'd like to take a min to mention how much help the FAQ's have been on this forum. Thank you to all. I have learned much in the past few days. Though I'm not from your side of the pond these sound principals are universal.

 

Let me start out buy describing my role in sound reinforcement. I'm a dad of drummer who is part of a very young and talented band, average age of 11yo. The kids are part of a band program at our local music school and have now played 5 or 6 shows at a local pub put on buy the music school and have recently started to play other shows not part of the music school.

This is where I enter in the absence of a "qualified and knowledgeable" sound man. The first show I had a friend who in the past has done "live sound" in a very amateur capacity help me out with the kids shows. He possessed some very old and mostly substandard abused equipment that I have since come to posses. I have now completed 2 shows with the kids on my own with marginally acceptable results. The kids play fantastic but it's not reflected in the videos we take of the shows.

 

This preamble brings me to a few questions I have in creating a better sound for both FOH and in the stage monitors. Note the use of industry jargon eg. FOH :o

 

Where do I start reading to get basic knowledge that is not mentioned on this sight I suspect because it's common knowledge? For example...

Right now I have a small archaic "stereo" mixer (I have since realized this just means does not have industry standard XLR connectors so good luck in renting a snake).An underpowered power amp 2x FOH old full range Peavey speakers with 15inch drivers and 2x monitors that appear home made or modified.

 

I now simply set this up all mono split the amp half to the monitors and half to the front speakers. I read about mixers with monitor outputs and sending part or all of the signal to one or all of the monitors but no where does it spell out how one does this?

 

I'd like to jump in and start buying new equipment but without being armed with a basic level of understanding I'm likely to purchase the wrong equipment. I'd rather struggle along with what I'm using now for at least a few months wile I learn a little to better help the kids and help myself make better decisions down the line.

 

Last show I was into a local music store renting lights and noticed they rent mixers, amps, speakers so I may do this for the next few shows.

 

I guess the best place to start is with the mixer? Would this be correct? Learning how to control these monsters?

 

Could anyone recommend a very basic book specific to live sound that would answer these types of questions and the question that will likely come to mind soon?

 

In my favor we have not played a venue that has required us to mic the drums. I have only just picked up 2 SM58's for vocals.

 

Where does a dad start?

[Jivemaster]

http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/0881889008.01.MZZZZZZZ.jpg Sound Reinforcement Handbook by Gary Davis

 

This Yamaha supported book is a brilliant start, it is now showing it's age as technology advances so fast. However it is my favourite text and being a little older the solutions are usually cheaper! It may be available from other places including your local music store.

 

the BIG question is how the "band" will survive the approach of girls/motorcars and other distractions. Meaning how much kit will dad be saddled with if the band folds as one member decides to go 3000 miles to Uni. Retail kit resells home made does not (in the UK at least!)

 

Moderation: Amazon links added

[amazon]123456[/amazon]

where the number is the 'asin' number from the Amazon page url. Sometimes you need

[amazon2]123456[/amazon2]

[paulears]

The yamaha book is very good - but perhaps a little difficult reading for a total newcomer - this book http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/1860742718.01.MZZZZZZZ.jpg Live Sound, by Paul White is a very easy to read, beginners guide that does cover monitors, miking and basic material you need to know without going into too much physics. I have both in my collection, and they are both ends of the spectrum. the amazon reviews help quite a lot in choosing.

[Chris Hinds]

Where do I start reading to get basic knowledge that is not mentioned on this sight I suspect because it's common knowledge? For example...

Right now I have a small archaic "stereo" mixer (I have since realized this just means does not have industry standard XLR connectors so good luck in renting a snake).An underpowered power amp 2x FOH old full range Peavey speakers with 15inch drivers and 2x monitors that appear home made or modified.

Hi Dad,

 

First, some online resources for you besides here:

The Soundcraft Guide to Mixing - personally I prefer to download a PDF but reading online works ok too

The Prosoundweb Study Hall - A good selection of articles, mainly focussed around interactions in gear rather than how tos.

 

I now simply set this up all mono split the amp half to the monitors and half to the front speakers. I read about mixers with monitor outputs and sending part or all of the signal to one or all of the monitors but no where does it spell out how one does this?

In simple terms mixers have things called busses. A bus is a seperate audio path that contains only what you have selected to include in it. In addition to the main busses (Left, Right and on most mixers, Mono too), you have Groups (which are busses that can feed into the main busses and are used to create a mix of just one type of instrument e.g. drums) and Auxes (which are used to drive effects units and also create monitor mixes).

 

I'd like to jump in and start buying new equipment but without being armed with a basic level of understanding I'm likely to purchase the wrong equipment. I'd rather struggle along with what I'm using now for at least a few months wile I learn a little to better help the kids and help myself make better decisions down the line.

This is the right way to do things, unfortunately too many people buy something, usually of poor quality then say "I just bought xyz on eBay is it any good?". From my point of view the first thing to do with any new musicians is to ensure they are optimised before you start amplifying them. Sound systems like anything else follow the Garbage-In, Garbage-Out principle, so getting good sound out means making sure things are as good as they can be on stage first. Not only does this make the sound better it makes your job easier too. So try this (assuming pretty standard band):

 

Drummers, especially young drummers don't all have good control of the dynamics. Try and get the drummer to play with the lightest sticks available that aren't brushes. He'll be able to hit hard as he's probably used to but without the drums dominating the stage. Loud drums are a big problem, because usually the vocalists are right in front so you get tons of spill down the vocal mics making things worse, especially with things like Cymbal rolls etc. They also dominate everything else on stage so any amplified instruments get turned up so the players can hear.

Amplfiers: No guitarist or keys player yet has been born with their ears being their knees like a grasshopper. So why do they buy a Half-Stack and point it there, or even a Combo amp and point it there. You can get stands that time either option back towards the players ears. This is important, because once they hear how the guitars ACTUALLY sound they will turn down the amps because they can hear properly and the tone will be better too. As many guitarists are used to listening to their amps from off-axis they have them louder, and harsher tone settings then the sound the amp is actually producing. Guitar amps are highly directional and you end up with a beam of sound out the amp which is painful to be in if it's too loud and harsh. Tipping back towards the ears means the players are likely to adapt their amp settings and reduce level. This is also good.

Vocalists might not seem an obvious place to need optimisation but they do. First of all mic-cupping like in Rap videos. It's not cool, don't do it. It changes the pickup pattern of the mic and makes things more likely to feed back, it also changes the response of the mic and makes things sound muddy. The mic should be held in a clip or by the stem, not by the ball. Singers should also stay on-axis to the mic with their mouth around an inch away tops, closer is better. That way you amplify the vocalist, not the stage wash.

 

As you may have noted by now all of that is geared around making the stage quieter, not louder. The quieter it is on stage the more control you have over things because when you try to get the vocals over the top of the amps and drums you're no longer boosting them hugely at the same time because the wash is less. Once you have control you can start heading for good sound.

 

I guess the best place to start is with the mixer? Would this be correct? Learning how to control these monsters?

It's a place to start, there is no right way, but the link to the Soundcraft guide will help explain how they work.

 

Could anyone recommend a very basic book specific to live sound that would answer these types of questions and the question that will likely come to mind soon?

The book Jivemaster recommended is very good but it was first published in 1987 so some bits are getting old now. The newer alternate is the JBL book, Audio Engineering for Sound Reinforcement. It's fair to say both will go somewhat beyond "pub band" levels of knowledge but the basics are good.

 

On the equipment side, there is a whole myriad of stuff to pick from and some of it is obviously superior to others. Jivemaster makes an excellent point about will the band survive girls and cars, so you possibly don't want to be buying very high end kit, but you would want to be buying something that isn't going to hinder you. The most well known of the bargain brands is Behringer, but not everyone is a fan. They do some OK stuff, but personally I don't like their mixers some of which bear more than a passing similarity to products released by other companies in terms of name and feature set. Allen & Heath do very honest basic mixers and something like the PA-12CP might suit you very nicely, it has two amplifiers built in, which initially you might use to power FOH, or one FOH and one monitors and then at a later date, use both to power two monitor mixes (which is better for the people on stage) and then feed a bigger system off the main outputs. The desk I highlighted gives you two monitor mixes, an Fx unit and an extra send to a monitor if you wanted it too. It's not the largest featureset in the world but it should be adequate. There is also a larger version if you feel you need more channels as that only has 8 mic channels...

 

I would say you'd eventually be looking at (in most small venues):

1. Kick

2. Overhead mic on drums

3. Bass

4. Guitar 1

5. Guitar 2

6. Vocal 1

7. Vocal 2

which would leave you 8 free for a keyboard if there is one. Generally there shouldn't be a need to do more micing than that on the drums in a small venue, because they should carry pretty well anyway. Most of the time I rarely do any more than that for less than 150-200 people in the audience.

 

Speakers wise, well all sorts are available from the world, his wife and his dog. Again some are better than others. Yamaha's Club series are very good basic speakers and Peavey make some reasonable units for the money too. Beware that both make some lousy units too and they are not the only companies.

 

Hope that helps

 

Regards

 

Chris

[Jivemaster]

One approach is to look for a deal with a local music shop, try to hire stuff, (how close is your "local" music shop? Canada has some big spaces!).

 

A valid UK practise is to hire something to see if you really like it, then if you decide it's what you really want hire again for rarely used stuff or buy for frequently used stuff. There is also the tax situation to consider and only a Canadian financial advisor/accountant can help you there ( in the UK business hires and business purchases are treated differently for tax purposes).

 

Perhaps a chat with the other parents and the music school is in order. The school may take management rights for bands they train. The band may need managment to get fresh gigs and money coming in. There may even be "child protection" issues with 11 year olds working in a band and in bars - there certainly would be in the UK. All managers are Svengali's they have to be to keep gigs coming in to afford the money going out! All bands sack their managers sooner or later. It's the time when bands go, or go on to bigger things!

 

Good Luck!

[MXDAD]

Thanks for all the feedback! I’ll get into the online links this afternoon.

It appears that the “basic live sound” book is the one for someone at my level! Thanks Paulears!

 

Jivemaster: You’re quite right about being careful how far I go into this. I’m just now recovering from learning the kids are not so passionate about riding dirt bikes… I have what I suspect would amount to a great PA sitting in the garage collecting dust!

 

I’m in the capital of Canada, Ottawa and this is a larger city with much support.

I will likely do as you recommend. In renting some equipment and purchasing other more often used. I imaging it would be wise to own the mixer or even a powered mixer, mics and necessary caballing\stands etc. Learn as much as I can in using this during the practice time here in my basement. Then rent a larger amp and speakers as needed. What I have now will certainly light up the house!

 

I suspect if or when the kids decide this is no longer fun I would be able to get out with a reasonable portion of my money back. Much of this stuff does seem to hold it’s value. I just picked up 2 used SM58 mics. These sell here for 125.00 each and regularly resell for 90 or 100.

 

Although the music school does have it’s own recording studio and label the “band program” they have signed up for does not control them in any way. We pay them to guide the kids with a band coach use of the practice space and PA. More importantly access to a live audience at monthly “unpaid” coffeehouses. Quite informal at this point.

 

The only reason I’m involved is the interest form outside the school for the kids to play other unpaid non alcohol shows. Not to mention the fact that I’m the only parent with any technical skills what so ever but admittedly having a tone-o-fun doing this!

 

Thanks Chris for the reply and detailed information, I’ll reply back later today as I need more time to address your post! Much appreciated!

 

 

Maybe tonight I’ll have time to take a few pictures of the equipment surrounding me as I type this and if anyone had a moment to advise me where to start improving… Tossing it all and starting over is not an option BTW! At the very least it allows the kids to practice here in the basement!

[Jivemaster]

Good luck, you could be "home" to the next purplr/queen or Quo, or home for some old PA! Kids will change their minds. Sorry abour the town assumption, I had friends who lived "near Calgary" only to find that near meant a two hour drive! through open country.

[Ben Langfeld]

You're quite right to think about buying things like mics, stands and cables first! They are the least expensive things and also the things that take up least space and are most transferable. You can very often use the same stage gear in completely different venues, but the size of the venue really dictates what kind of PA you would need. Unless you always play the same type/size of venue, buying PA probably isn't a good idea.

 

Also, at some point it might be worth trying to get the band used to IEMs. As was said before, the lower the volume on stage, the better. IEMs help with this, fit in a briefcase and save your back!