dave singleton Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 I'm slightly confused by a rider from a very famous band. They specify all the systems that are acceptable etc, but then specify that the system must be at least xxKw. They didn't specify minimum SPL in areas etc. Am I missing something, but when you recieve a professional rider like this surely thats not a good thing to have on it? Especially when dealing only with high end systems. Or did I miss something somewhere? ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niclights Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 I see all sorts of riders. Some good, some awful. This does not sound unusual. IMO a good rider will be polite and generally imply a certain quality level without becoming specific, placing absolute demands/orders etc. Bad riders will be 'MUST', 'CANNOT', 'kW', 'minimum DB @ blah blah'. Good riders will be 'suitable for size of venue'/'this is what we want to achieve'! Bad riders such as ones that specify a kW without taking into account system or venue size give me serious doubts as to the engineers experience and knowledge. The more specific a rider, the more insulting I find it. Mini rant over! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris4monitors Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 I agree that a good rider would have a more specific request as to coverage and spl. the one I send out for one of my artists lists acceptable systems but is also open for discussion by phone etc. I find most good engineers are quite adaptable, as are a lot of systems.Do you have the realy important part of the rider ie. Input list and stage plot.C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Hinds Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 In the past it was a reasonable way of avoiding poor systems because el cheapo couldn't get to high wattages. This is no longer the case. First thing is as Chris says, do you have the most important parts of the rider. Secondly, is the Sound Engineer's phone number current? Third. Call it. Now. Discuss the venue, the options of system and more. Anything you do to advance the show more than makes up for a minor glitch on the day. Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim b Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 placing absolute demands/orders etc. Bad riders will be 'MUST' Erm, only up to a point. If the only monitor setup that works for your artist is x wedges with x boxes for side fill then that is a MUST. Ridiculous spl demands seem par for the course and are sometimes only there to guarantee a response from the PA provider. I've seen some specs that look like they've been written on the back of fag packets for surprisingly well known bands where the engineer has been awesome and the same where they've been crap. I've also seen very well presented and demanding specs where the guy hasn't seemed to know how to work all the gear specced, though excellent engineers can come with excellent specs. I think the thrust of my point is that instead of having a fit when you read a rider put together the best package you can and then ring the engineer. Sometimes they'll play ball, sometimes you may need to sub in some bits of gear, sometimes they're just speccing it so that certain companies generally get the gig. Any decent engineer will know what he can live without so a conversation directly with them is normally very productive, it also rules out the chance of having a three year old spec from the previous crew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Whenever we get odd requests we always call. In 9 out of 10 cases, the response is "oh that's ok - it's an old rider" or "that was the last managent companies rider - what have you got?" I wish I could sort the wish list ones from the serious ones. Spent hours and a good slice of budget once on a big band rider - then they arrived and said they were an authentic 40's sound and didn't want any PA of any kind! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan slv-tech Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 did a well known band couple of weeks ago, the 1st question I got was "how many watts is this system" - I was tempted to ask him whether he could tell by listening to the rig ;) Alot of people assume that moree watts = better sound- in most instances less is more, or rather more coverage, less power! Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviejenkins Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 Usually our Riders just say the PA must be able to provide 110dbA even coverage throughout venue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shez Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 Usually our Riders just say the PA must be able to provide 110dbA even coverage throughout venue. Perhaps venturing slightly OT, but what will happen to that kind of rider once the new max SPL regs come in to being in entertainment venues? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Pearce Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 Well it says 'must be able to', it doesn't say 'must produce that level during the show'. So I guess that the max SPL regs may not affect it. I don't like statements like 'must produce 110dB SPL' as even my little rig could produce 110dB SPL; but I wouldn't want to hear it! A clean 110dB SPL is very different from a foul distorted 110dB SPL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbsy Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 Very true. Specifying an SPL measurement without also referring to, for example, distortion figures and frequency response, is pointless. As for not using the maximum available/specified SPL, sometimes there is merit to this since some systems sound better when not being pushed to the max. Conversely though, there are some systems that seem to be at their best when working hard. I think that generally the most important part of the rider should be the phone number so you can talk things though. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigglesuk Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 did a well known band couple of weeks ago, the 1st question I got was "how many watts is this system" - I was tempted to ask him whether he could tell by listening to the rig :huh: A friend of mine told me a great response for that question. "I've got a 100w heater, how much sound does that produce?" Have to be careful who you say that one to if you want future work etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghance Posted March 22, 2007 Share Posted March 22, 2007 Usually our Riders just say the PA must be able to provide 110dbA even coverage throughout venue. 'j pearce' - I welcome riders like steviejenkins. its a precise way of conveying your requirements. the important bit is *even coverage throughout* i.e. will it do 110dB to every seat in the house? I'm sure stevie's rider qualifies this by some kind of 'without distortion' statement and possibly some 'full range' qualifier i.e. NOT 110dB @ 1Khz @ 1m from the speaker. yes, IMHO spec'ing a modern PA in terms of Watts is utter nonsense. and I cringe whenever I see it on a rider. but yes, sooo many riders still state it. often its just a cut'n'paste from riders past. but more importantly it's a concept understood by the promoter. many promoter will have no idea what SPL, distortion, dispersion actually looks like. but if you ask for a 5k, 10K, 20K, 50K rig they have a pretty good idea of who to call.. mike's mobile karaoke or britrow. start touring round places like zimbabwe, malawe, nabia etc then you get down to the essentials of big box or little box, and does it actually work? using terminology that the promoter or PA contractor does not understand is not going to help. and I 100% agree with chris hinds. use the phone number. its peace of mind for you, artists and their management, but perhaps more importantly its just polite etiquette - 'thanks, received yr rider. all looks straight forward.. we know the local venue very well and we'd suggest that 4 stacks of nexo alpha would do nicely. what do you think?'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallMike Posted March 22, 2007 Share Posted March 22, 2007 I've found on a lot of riders, they specify along the line of 'at least 10w per person' - I find this to be a very reasonable request and a good guide to what size system to bring! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim b Posted March 22, 2007 Share Posted March 22, 2007 I've found on a lot of riders, they specify along the line of 'at least 10w per person' - I find this to be a very reasonable request and a good guide to what size system to bring! To be honest I'd much rather a spec says "must be able to produce x dB y weighted from frequency a to frequency b" as this neatly bypasses the question of the efficiency of the boxes in question. X many watts of d&b (or any other modern well designed PA box) versus x many watts of a proprietary system would be hugely different. The Watts calculations make no sense speaker to speaker and take no account of where the array is dumping all that energy. Though I think as long as the system is loud enough for the act in question then the engineer isn't going to be breaking out the test gear. Thankfully most riders have become more geared to SPL and even coverage of late, with only the ones which seem to hang around in agents offices still giving Watts calculations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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