bjkered Posted March 4, 2007 Share Posted March 4, 2007 Just popped over from Lighting. Having listened to a few Line arrays at some festivals I have been lighting last year got me thinking. This is not a technical thread by any means. I hear great benefits in the sound quality at out door arenas with using the line array across the spectrum of different bands and people on stage ( school kids through to rock and roll) However in the rock and roll end of music, is it me or is there something missing through a line array. It does not seem to have the same bite or earthy grit (sound like an estate agent). Good old rock and roll seems to be a bit Clinical through the array's I have listened to. Dare I say sounds to much like Hi-Fi not rock and roll ( Mostly Martin don't ask me which ones, but they were the small box's and the next size up) and yes they did have ground Bass bins set up. I know I am only an ageing Lampy ( save you the effort, but I do know something about sound) Would it be the array, the mix going into the array or just me, Let loose the dogs of war :blink: I look forward to reading your comments :wacko: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Beech Posted March 5, 2007 Share Posted March 5, 2007 Martin Audio has always been known for its Hifi like sound, this is what puts them up there with some of the better systems available on the market, however this sound is not always suitable for the program material and I suppose in some ways that can let the system(s) down a little, on the other hand, there are many arrays out there that with the nicest of voices singing into the nicest of mics the sound will still come out and kick you in the face, This as I'm sure you'll understand is not suitable for all applications either. This is typical with all types of system, not just line arrays, the Martin W8's I use are great for theatre, great for most rock'n'roll stuff too, great for pulling your back out, but in my opinion poor or worse for things like Metal. Far too clinical sound for that. The small ones you talk about I will assume are the W8LM and its family, and the Next ones up the W8LC and its family. The larger line arrays (the common one) the W8L is a little more universal and can turn its hands to alot more. the new W8L Longbow for anyone who has yet to hear it is stunning to say the least. So in general, different manufacturers usually have different sounds, alot of us here could probably tell a manufacturer a mile off, they are not all suitable for every application, but personally I would take something too clinical over something "in your face" any day. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbsy Posted March 5, 2007 Share Posted March 5, 2007 I suppose it comes down, at least in part, to the "style" of sound you want. As Rob says, it's not simply a line array issue but also down to the sound of the speaker cabs in question. Martin are known for the clean, clinical sound and, as such, are excellent for applications like theatre but perhaps not what you want for a gritty rock show. We recently had a very informative discussion about the theory behind line arrays which you might find good background reading. Have a look HERE. Make sure you read to the end...one or two people had a slightly inaccurate view of how LAs work but this was all sorted out as the thread went on. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesperrett Posted March 5, 2007 Share Posted March 5, 2007 Maybe the live sound engineers are facing the same problem that recording engineers faced when digital recording was introduced. Many people complained that digital recording sounded too clean and clinical so there is now a huge market for boxes that offer 'analogue warmth'. Now that PA's have improved maybe you're just finding that the real sound of a rock band is far more clinical than you would like. Cheers James. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim b Posted March 5, 2007 Share Posted March 5, 2007 I think the increased accuracy of PA systems will be a growing trend which will put choices about the actual sound of the band back into the engineer's hands. i.e. older/lesser systems tended to give you that 'rock show' sound and 'grit' due to their inherent weaknesses, newer systems will reproduce that sound but will not create it themselves-you'll have to get your sounds right in your signal chain before it hits the amps. I think the Digidesign Venue is typical of this trend-engineers using this desk have the best systems on the market with all the accuracy this entails so they are turning to the plugins to recreate the studio sounds of the band. Personally I can only see this as a good thing for hire companies...neutral sounding PA can go out to corporate jobs, rock shows and raves the engineers spec'ing the show can decide what toys they need to make the music sound how it should. Interesting observation bjkered. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RustyBrooks Posted March 5, 2007 Share Posted March 5, 2007 Chaps, it's so much more than just sound of the boxes, with a bit of thought, and the right amount of Line Array, then you will have enough capacity for any band. Found that a lot of people are putting in to little, hence a thin sound, trust me, if you design a mini martin line system right, it sounds like a far bigger system. The main advantage of line array is speed, takes about a quarter of the time to stick a line array in the air compared to a point source. In an arena, with d&B 402's, take a crew of four, plus me, and 3 motor points, perfectly triangulated and an hour to get it in the air, cabled, pointed, and ready to flash out. V-Dosc, on the other hand, biggest uggliest and probably fiddliest Line about (people will probably argue here, but this is my experience) taks two crew, me and two motor points about a metre in front of each other, and 20 minutes to have in the same state. Big Theatres, its 50-50 really, which is easier, but I still think a line arrray of the right length, and correct position, will provide a more useable system. Small Theatres, point source, harder to groundstack a line, or find the space to get a decent length. I'd argue the point about the Martin stuff being "critical" I think it has a nice sound, with a great bite to the horn, but you need to work with I to get a good result. I think though, if the mix doesn't sound like the band should do, then fundementally, the probem is with the engineer, not the equipment.. If the pa works, sounds flat, and has the headroom to accomodate the act, then the engineer is resonsible for the sound. Have worked with engineers over several tours, changing pa from tour to tour due to venue sizes, or location, and they have presented the audience with a very similar sound from gig to gig. What you loose on a well set up line (it isn't as easy as people think) is combing between boxes, and gain a massive amount of HF energy from 30m back, making it sound clearer, and more presentable. Rock through Line Array? Prodigy used it, think they my have one of the dirtiest, most distorted sounds around, but Line Array was the box of choice. the strokes, chili peppers, eminem, theres three groups doing the loud noisy thing which sounded belting on line array, though heard eminem on a small d&B rig and very little difference, engineer wrked with the tools, and made the sound he wanted. Think it may be a bit of a daft thread this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim b Posted March 6, 2007 Share Posted March 6, 2007 Would it be the array, the mix going into the array or just me, Think it may be a bit of a daft thread this? I think the question is a valid one, whether it merits any further discussion than the comments above may be a different matter. Someone who attends a lot of shows though not directly involved in the audio production has noticed a trend and wants to know the cause-how can finding things out be a bad thing? Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbuckley Posted March 6, 2007 Share Posted March 6, 2007 I think though, if the mix doesn't sound like the band should do, then fundementally, the probem is with the engineer, not the equipment.Oh yeah, agree in droves. I've said it before, it's a controversial view I know, but I believe live sound mixing is really live sound production, and you need to be willing to do a lot more than just mix what comes from the stage. I'd argue the point about the Martin stuff being "critical" I think it has a nice sound, with a great bite to the horn, ...Arrgh. The American sound. I hate horns that shout. It's another artifact of a sound system to be worked around. Leave these horns at the railway station where they belong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Beech Posted March 6, 2007 Share Posted March 6, 2007 I'd argue the point about the Martin stuff being "critical" I think it has a nice sound, with a great bite to the horn,Arrgh. The American sound. I hate horns that shout. Not sure on that one at all, the last thing I'd say about the Martin sound is that its an American sound. The reason I use it is because it DOESN'T do that, at least the stuff I own and the others I've used doesn't anyway. Whilst its all a matter of opinions, floodlight in comparison to W8 is like being smacked in the teeth with a bit of 4x2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbuckley Posted March 6, 2007 Share Posted March 6, 2007 Not sure on that one at all, the last thing I'd say about the Martin sound is that its an American sound. The reason I use it is because it DOESN'T do that, at least the stuff I own and the others I've used doesn't anyway.Thats my memory of old Martin, but I've never heard a Martin line array, which I why I found it surprising that Martin horns would be described as "having bite". Either they don't, which is good, or they sound very different from classic Martin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RustyBrooks Posted March 6, 2007 Share Posted March 6, 2007 dBuckley, think I may have been misunderstood... The martin Line Array stuff I've used does NOT have that American mid horn honk that everybody this side of the pond dislikes so much, but the HF horn has some real Bite, crispness, energy, a certain sparkle, bite being, in my vocabulary, synonimous with HF clarity and power... sorry for any confusion! Though to be fair, if you don't Horn Load a driver, you get very little throw, and bugger all effieciency, so think I dissaprove of the leave the horns at the station comment, sorry can't work out how to quote, Horns belong in Loadspeakers! Never get sound at he back of an auditorium, or close control of dispersion and coverage patterns without. But the system control, box integration, and more importantly engineers and designers opinions make the American boxes sound American, and British, sound British, and French boxes are brown! Though a certain trapeziod Martin Box, may very well have a very American sound, being as it was voiced to match pretty closely the American Box... I can't here much difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjkered Posted March 6, 2007 Author Share Posted March 6, 2007 Thanks guys some interesting comments in the feed back. This is what a forum is for, perhaps this thread should have been in general tech chat Think I am going to have a more detailed chat with the engineer on the next outing, which will be with an engineer I know well . Will take a couple of cd's of mine and if we get 5 mins ask him to indulge me and see what affect can be had. Interesting to see comments around Martin Kit. ( must get a few more outings against another make of Line Array ) ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RustyBrooks Posted March 6, 2007 Share Posted March 6, 2007 bjkered, be interested to know how much martin your friends are useing, how big the space, and whether the system tech is useing the factory default settings in the controllers, or if they have made some mods for their own taste... a little info would be great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Beech Posted March 6, 2007 Share Posted March 6, 2007 Though a certain trapeziod Martin Box, Which one would that be, I'm a W8 user and would class that as having the bite you are talking about, and not the American sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjkered Posted March 7, 2007 Author Share Posted March 7, 2007 Just a bit of detail The last version was W8LM Array 9 box's aside with bass out of the Martin H3 range. If you look here you will some Photos of the last set up http://www.protechaudiovisual.com/EquipList2006TG1.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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