college health & saftey worry

[Sam_Lowers]

Hi all

 

Before I start I would just like to point just that I don't want to offend anyone who tutors or other educational staff in anyway with this post!

 

As you can see from the title I am worried about college health & safety.

 

My concern is to do with multiple things that college students are not allowed to do.

 

Unlike a lot of people I know from different technical colleges I have had the advantage of being able to get professional work as well as doing shows that are college related. What I have found it that there is a totally different set of rules for professional and educational establishments, eg:

-Ladder and other access work

-Use of power and phasing

-Wiring

 

What I worry about is that students will be coming out of education and want to go into the professional world but will not know how it works, I.e not know how to wire plugs or how to use access gear etc.

 

Obviously at the end of the day with education it all comes down to money, insurance and child protection due to the fact that you are your tutors responsibility but I do find it strange that the course profession is not looked into more when it comes to health and safety guide lines.

 

I know that there will always be someone more experienced around to help out on site, but I have found that you are usually busy enough yourself and it can sometimes be difficult to go and help someone else as well.

 

Just wondering what everyone else thought and if you have any concerns about the future of new technicians

 

Thanks

Sam

[Tom R]

This thread is heading dangerously towards the age debate that has been covered here so many times before! (heads for cover)

[paulears]

I can't see anything that gives offence. I'm not sure it's even a heath and safety issue.

 

If you take on staff, then some will already be experienced and not need as much 'mentoring'. With a green person straight from school, college or uni, normally people make the assumption they don't know, so make sure they do. Nobody in their right mind would take on a member of staff in a junior position and then assume they are safe, or perhaps more to the point, able to do a certain task.

 

So I wouldn't worry. Education is not about turning you into an industry standard professional by your first day on the job. It's about making you are more useful/knowledgeble/skilled etc than you used to be! (That's a kind of awful way of putting it, but I suspect you know what I mean). The worst people to employ are those who tell you how good they are, but turn out not to be!

[Bobbsy]

I notice that the original poster is 17, turning 18 later this month, so I'm surprised that any professional theatre is able to use a minor in jobs that involve working at height or doing wiring.

 

As paulears says, at 17 nobody is going to expect a prospective employee to know everything. Indeed, many people are only just finishing high school/upper school and preparing to spend several more years at college or university specialising in a theatre-related course. Others will be trying the "on the job" route to learning. Either way, this is an age to be at the beginning of the process, not trying to know everything.

 

Bob

[Sam_Lowers]

cheers so far for the replies

 

it's nice to see that others have a bit more confidence then me:)

 

it's not that I am trying to sound big headed about saying that I am more experienced in anyway than others I have just got lucky with the experiences I have been offered and have worked very hard to get them!

 

the main reason that I posted is that a few of us at college were having a chat about it and a few friends were worried that they wouldn't be able to get jobs when they leave but it is nice to hear that, by the sounds of things, professionals like you guys are willing to take on 'newbies' and work with them instead of just telling or expecting them to do things (something I have experienced before)

 

no to worry by the way bobbsy, where I have worked at big heights is only in certain venues who I have worked with for a while - I started off always working directly 1 to 1 with some other technicians until they were confidant with my ability's

 

cheers

sam

[tokm]

no to worry by the way bobbsy, where I have worked at big heights is only in certain venues who I have worked with for a while - I started off always working directly 1 to 1 with some other technicians until they were confidant with my ability's

Doesn't mean that as a minor your allowed to work at height..

 

Actually come to think of it, even when your over 18 you might not necessarily be able to work at height on all access equipment. At a few venues I often freelance/casual for, only full time staff are allowed up the scope/tower/genie lift. Because their the only people covered by the insurance. Casuals are allowed to go up onto the fly/patch galleries & up zarge's though.

 

Other members would be be able to give better clarification on exact H&S rules than myself.

 

On topic though, having come from a college environment to working in the pro world strait after, but having done some work while still at college in 2nd year (over 18 in the 2nd year as I started college a year late because of doing 6th form for a year) I remember some of the concerns you have. The trick I found was to just understand their was a difference between the two environments. Something along the lines of.. when casual'ing, ok watch how people do this, thats how it's done in the pro world.. When at college, ok, this's how they do it here because of XYZ rules to do with not everyone being over 18 and its in an educational institution, thats fine, I know that its not that exactly done the same way in the real world.

 

Suppose thats the bonus of being in both environments, you see two perspectives. I'd have thought at drama school they'd orientate rules of working to how they are in the pro world.. well, as much as they could, still being an educational institution and all.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

Tom

[mattwright15]

HSE and Insurance policy's aside.

 

I know that this can be a big grey area where some members of the forum believe that under 18's shouldn't use access equipment while in education institutes, studying technical courses, ect because they are to young and may injure them selves.

Fair Point all round I guess.

 

But if we don't let students (by whom I refer to 16+ ONLY) work above a meter how will they learn to be a technician. We have to assume that prior to them being aloud to climb a 18run Zargy ladder that they are fully aware of all the dangers which they would be exposed to by doing this, and when its time to work at height they should be supervised and corrected if the tutor sees something potentially dangerous.

 

As said above that on day one no one will expect a 17 year old to be a professionally experienced technician, But they will be expected to be able to climb a ladder and be safe & aware of everything that is happening around/ under them so they do not cause injury to themselves or anyone else.

If we don't let students do it why do theatres let employees do this (with exception to some)? Doesn't make sense to me.

 

It comes down to you can't teach someone how to be a technician, you can only teach them the knowledge of the industry- the hands on experience will determine if they can be a technician.

 

My personal view;

The next step for education institutes to take would be to either allow a version of what I have written above to happen, or get large rolls of bubble wrap and smother the children so they can't hurt them self or get injured by anything around them- A quick guide to make a potentially useless technician; defeating the objective of the course?

 

Sorry I guess this has just turned into a rant.

 

Matt

[b1nuzz]

I agree with what has been said above. I have worked at the theatre Sam is talking about for about 6 months, but I also freelance for other companies at the same time. The difference between working in the college and 'the real world' is amazing. The restrictions that are put on students is for their own safety as people have said above, but this doesnt give them the experience of working in the industry.

 

All the students are 16+, but none of them are allowed to work at height, without training. But no-one is there to give them the official training that the college asks for. Big problem.

 

When I am out on jobs, its easy to jump on a flightcase and swivel yourself around to focus, and I assume we all do it. (right?), but if a student was caught doing this, they would be banned from the theatre and not allowed to use the theatre for the next few weeks.

 

Because of the strict rules that the college put on the students, most of them end up breaking the rules to get the job done. This obviously results in problems when some students are allowed to break the rules so that they can get a show done, where the other students, who may not be so technically minded as the others, are not allowed to break the rules.

 

Its something I dont understand, and whenever I have taught at the college (I am currently a part time lecturer as well) I have taught the students how to rig etc using the 'correct methods' but also explained to them how the industry does it so that they can understand that its not quite the same. Unfortunately nobody in management seems to think the same.

 

Rant over.

[Bobbsy]

HSE and Insurance policy's aside.

 

I know that this can be a big grey area where some members of the forum believe that under 18's shouldn't use access equipment while in education institutes, studying technical courses, ect because they are to young and may injure them selves.

Fair Point all round I guess.

 

But if we don't let students (by whom I refer to 16+ ONLY) work above a meter how will they learn to be a technician.

 

<snip>

 

The trouble is you can't say "HSE and Insurance policies aside" because that's generally the nub of the issue. In the vast majority of cases (perhaps all cases) if a school or employer lets an under 18 do something "hazardous" they are not insured and are open to prosecution and huge lawsuits if anything goes wrong.

 

The other half of your question has already been answered. If the rules state that under 18s shouldn't work at height, then nobody will expect a person to be an expert on their 18th birthday. There's still plenty of time to learn new skills after they become legally adult...and many people are only just finishing upper school or starting university/college at this age. There are plenty of things a 16 or 17 year old CAN be learning without climbing ladders or scaff towers.

 

Bob

[paulears]

I certainly don't subscribe to the idea that anybody under 18 should not climb ladders, or do some of the 'normal' stage activities.In fact, quite the opposite. there are, sadly, some places where for whatever reason, it isn't allowed. My personla opinion is that if they don't consider it to be something they are happy doing, that's fine, but they shouldn't be doing a programme where it is kind of expected - or indeed specified in the programme specification. Why choose to do lighting if your school won't let you do ladders?

 

As an employer, there is an expectation that if your certificate says you have a Distinction in a lighting unit, a Distinction in a sound unit and a Distinction in a stage management unit, then you should be able to erect a flat or two, focus a lantern and connect an amp to some speakers. It doesn't necessary follow that you can walk in and re-patch a desk to new dimmers, work your way through setting up a digital desk, or cue a show with spoken and light cues.

 

As every school and college do slightly different versions of National courses, there wil be loads of potential differences in skill level. One place with loads of movers will take the phrase "focus and plot lights" to mean bash a few buttons, track a Mac 500 accross the floor, colour it, gobo it and then hit record. Another with just a few Fresnels and a manual desk will climb steps, or a ladder, manually prod it, stuff in a gel, and note the levels on a piece of paper.

 

There isn't much that can be done here to 'normalise' things. So generally on here we don't really know what skills people have gained via their place of study. Some may be very different to others. The truly scary thing is when people exagerate their skill level. Working as a casual follow spot op doesn't make people an LD overnight - if ever. I'm not knocking follow spots ops - that was my first paid job too, but age and experience do count - and it is very, very unlikely that you have much real experience of the industry until you are in it, and education is behind you.

[Sam_Lowers]

I fully agree with all the points that have been stated so far. I can see what you are saying paulears by saying that you cannot become a LD over night! but I do feel that if the rules weren't so tight then it would be a lot easier for everyone.

 

this is my first, (and only time) in college so I don't know what it was like for the older generations but if it keeps on going the way it is for us I can see it causing a big disruption in the industry.

 

like b1nuzz said when he teaches in college he can tell people how things are done properly but unfortunately cant show it, is this the same for any other tutors on BR?

 

I find, and it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of you agree with me, that when on site I do what is necessary to do to get the job done.

 

if this means that I am up a tower and have to lean a little further than you are supposed to then I will do it!

 

I do follow H&S in the real world and in college but the way that I like to work is that if I feel safe, I am putting no one in danger and it is realistic to do then I will do it! if this means leaning or standing on a case-or in some theatre the banister of a f/o/h box then I will do so as long as, like I said, I feel safe to do so.

 

I will never do anything that could make me or anyone else feel uncomfortable

 

do you all agree??

 

I am getting some brilliant replies to this post so please keep them coming as I find it very interesting to hear other people's views with in the industry

 

thanks

sam:)

[Brian]

I find, and it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of you agree with me, that when on site I do what is necessary to do to get the job done.

 

if this means that I am up a tower and have to lean a little further than you are supposed to then I will do it!

Sam, in the year 2005/2006 there were 212 people killed at work. I wonder how many of those were doing what was 'necessary to get the job done'?

[Tomo]

if this means that I am up a tower and have to lean a little further than you are supposed to then I will do it!

As someone who has seen a colleague deck it, I find that idea deeply disturbing.

 

50% of falls from 10 feet cause death or serious injury.

(Source: Planet Platforms WAH seminars)

 

The rules and guidelines are there for a reason.

One colleage was one too many - and he nearly got me as well, as the ladder he was up only just missed me.

[paulears]

Sam, you were doing really well, then spoiled it by saying

if this means that I am up a tower and have to lean a little further than you are supposed to then I will do it!

 

This is the thing that us old 'uns cannot allow to be said! How do you know when the 'little' is 'too much' - answer = experience, but even then sometimes complacency creeps up.

 

I am not saying I never did it, I'm not even saying I wouldn't do it now, because, as you said we live in a real world where things do go wrong.

 

Here on the BR I believe we have a firm duty to try to stop these things happening to people. I still learn from the near misses - but analysis usually shows I was just too lazy, or even overconfident.

 

Bad practice is far too dangerous to post on a public forum - other people will see it, and even if they don't repeat your actions, they make a judgement about you, adding another hit for the knock youth storyline. You need to promote safety yourself to be considered 'mature'. Even if not meant that way, it just says something about you when you tell the world you are prepared to push just a little too much.

[Bobbsy]

I find, and it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of you agree with me, that when on site I do what is necessary to do to get the job done.

 

if this means that I am up a tower and have to lean a little further than you are supposed to then I will do it!

 

I do follow H&S in the real world and in college but the way that I like to work is that if I feel safe, I am putting no one in danger and it is realistic to do then I will do it! if this means leaning or standing on a case-or in some theatre the banister of a f/o/h box then I will do so as long as, like I said, I feel safe to do so.

 

If I was the staff member at your college responsible for you and you were to "lean a little further than you are supposed to" while my back was turned, you'd never climb a tower again under my supervision. Lucky for you I'm not an instructor.

 

As Brian says, a couple of hundred people a year die in work related accidents. Probably the majority of them are: A) doing what's necessary to get the job done, and B) feeling safe just before the accident.

 

If you're not worried for yourself, please spare a thought for the adult who's responsible for your safety. Even if it's your choice to push the boundaries, it's the responsible adult who will be in big trouble for your actions. Both he and your school could be ruined financially by your irresponsible actions...and certainly you will have destroyed his/her career.

 

While I have every sympathy with your desire to do the interesting stuff, the rules aren't optional. They're there to be followed.

 

Bob