new kit

[afterworks]

In a few months im going have about £4000 to spend on some new kit. I currently have 2x Robe 250XTs...for my first set of movers they've been a good to me! I'm not very keen on the red tho, although thats not very relevant for my question! I'm also currently using a showtec light desk pro 136, which again has been ok for learning some basics of moving lights, but have out grown this and I've realized its not any real use for what I use the movers for. I use the movers for the rock gigs I organize. I have been using my Robes with 6 pars, some UV cannons combined with some white cammo netting I have and its always looked great for our purpose. I have also been doing some lighting jobs for other gigs, but because those venues dont always have a single or 3 phase output, I cant use the pars so I'm left with my 2 robes, which don't really cut it. I'm starting to get more work for different people in all sorts of venues, so I need to upgrade.

 

I'm by no means a professional, but have been fortunate to work and hire from my local theatre. I'm doing a Frog course tomorrow down at Zero88's base in south wales, and am going to London to do an avolites training day, and a play day the following day at the end of the month (I'm one very excited bloke!!)

 

I obviously want to spend my money as best as possible and just want to run my thoughts past you guys....

 

I need a new desk, either would like a fat frog or a pearl. I know ive never used either yet, but from what ive learned on here, they seem the best options. A 2nd had fatfrog is the cheapest option and this will leave me money to buy some fixtures. From what I've read on here the pearl seems to be a better fitting desk as I want a 'busk' friendly desk as possible. Also it would mean if I'm in a decent venue with their own kit, ie academy 3 manc, I wouldn't have a problem using their pearl.

 

 

I suppose the question is, should I get a frog desk, and get some fixtures aswell. Or buy a Pearl, overkill for now I know, but I'd probably never need to buy another desk right? and with fixtures as cheap 20 quid a day from 10outof10 it wouldn't cost me a fortune to get some wash lights and some more spots. BUT as I live up North delivery from them is not cheap.

 

(reading this back I seem to be selling myself the pearl...)

 

Regarding movers, there are some mac 250+ and some high end 250 spots for £600 on usedlighting.co.uk . From what ive read on here I think I'd lean towards the high end ones. I'd also be looking for some wash lights to.

 

Buying them second hand I obviously get more lights for my money, but would I be better buying say 2 new kryptons or robes 250ATs? are the newer movers worth it? Would I be getting more with less lights?

 

I realise there are quite a few parts to this, so any advice on any part would be most welcome!

 

p.s can I just say how thank full I am the blue room exists. everyday I come on here learn something new.

[niclights]

Hi, you are covering a wide range of things here as you say.

 

I would suggest searching around the forum for more information about all this. There are many topics & not much point to go through all the pro's and con's again both for and against movers, which ones and which desk.

 

As a quick summary:

 

For desk I will definitely recommend Pearl. As you realise this is very much OTT for your current kit, but assuming you intend to continue and expand I don't think you would ever regret buying one & it will probably suit you until it dies. It has proven itself, easy to use but with huge potential and, should the situation ever arise, it will be familiar to others LD's.

 

Regarding 'other kit'. I doubt you will have much to spare anyway, but given the opportunity I would try to steer clear of the cheaper movers & just buy more generic stuff first. Pars are the staple diet of any rock show IMO, much cheaper and they never go wrong. In contrast movers always go wrong, regardless of make/cost, where the more expensive ones are simply easier to fix and have more support (ability to get spares ;) ) I would advise staying away from S/H also because of all the moving parts. The only reason I would consider getting any movers would be to add two more Robe 250XT's making a more usable intelligent rig at some point. Otherwise they are generally just a pain-in-the-**** and nothing like as much fun as a some tin cans with bulbs! Forget about wash lights until you've got a good generic rig. This will tend to do the job much better anyway.

 

All this has been covered a zillion times already though, so just have a scan around.

 

As an aside, but with relevance, was your comment about 'not very keen on the red'. This is something virtually all moving lights suffer from and is because of the lamp. The vast majority use metal halide source which has a high colour temperature. This means it is cold or more blue. Therefore when you try and filter out just the red component there isn't much of it. This is in complete contrast to a generic, tunsten-halogen lamp such as a Par which have a low colour temperature and are great at producing reds but terrible at blues. Another good reason to stay with generics and an example of why no one fixture is perfect for every task.

 

Finally, being pendantic, if a venue does not have single or three-phase power, what does it have? I assume you misunderstand the terms and are referring to power or c-forms? Not sure, but one for you to Google :)

 

HTH

[afterworks]

Thanks, much appreciated! Yeh TBH I was leaning towards the Pearl because, you assumed right I do wish to continue, expand, learn and get better and I think that if I did go for the fatfrog, at some point further down the road I'm going to want a Pearl. With regards to the wash lights, well instead of wash lights, what about some colour commands in the future after I sort some better generic stuff out?

 

 

and thank you, I didnt know that about the temps..and tip learnt, always have some red gels in some pars!

 

and yes I do mean power, but probably have the terminology wrong, my understanding was that, pars into the dimmer rack which is hooked up to the distro, hooked up to the single or 3 phase socket in the building? I guess I need to check out the wiki!

[niclights]

Oh certainly. High-End fixtures are lovely. Not cheap though. IIRC approx £6,000 list. But, as always, you gets what you pays for!

 

LED's are another option. Again never a replacement for either generics or moving wash, but they are very good at both red and blue (and green, obviously), these being their source lamp. They don't need much power, or lamps or dimmers but they are awful at producing white (or at least nice warm whites) and don't dim very 'naturally'. Also, in raw form, they are painful viewed directly on-axis and look silly off-axis. Oh if only there was some magic perfect fixture!

 

The dimming aspect is another wonderful thing about generics. Mechanical & LED dimming is not very nice. Tungsten dimming produces a lovely reduction in colour temp as you reduce power which you lose with the other sources. They also never turn off instantly when you snap to blackout. Sometimes you might want this and the mechanical or LED dimming is perfect, but the old glow from DWE blinders is, IMO, beautiful! (sorry... rambling)

 

Yes, do go a-searchin' about power. Very useful to understand the meaning of phases and what all the connector power are etc. Seeing as they can kill you and all that...

[Paul J Need]

Concerning the desk: it does depend very much what you want to use it for; yes, it has to be said a Fat Frog is a poor mans Pearl but I have yet to come across anything a Pearl can do a frog cannot ( if you put your minid to it ;o) ) Will you be using it for theatre or rock 'n roll or both?

 

For quick one off shows I feel a Frog is superb; quick to patch, quick to edit, and you still have the hands on stuff for when you want to busk. For theatre it still beats the Pearl IMO

 

Do you want to spend £5-6,000 on a pearl only to find it's been replaced by a totally amazing Pearl 2008 then no one want to use your 2006 anymore??

 

I'd say save your money and go for the Frog; invest in more lanterns then put the frog work.

[niclights]

Just to avoid any confusion there is a Pearl and a Pearl Expert. There is no difference between the 2000, 2004 and 2008 Pearls other than cosmetic and, in the case of the 2008 the option of storage via USB. The same software runs on all and the control surface etc is identical and this will not change. The Expert is faster with a few more controls and will, in due course, run completely different software but it's still almost identical physically and the two desks will deliberately maintain compatibility & familiarity for many years, so don't be put off by this. The Pearl has already proven itself at 10 years old and counting. It is obvious that any technology has potential to go out of date, including the Frog.

 

I won't dispute the comments about requirements/suitability/cost etc.

[afterworks]

** laughs out loud ** as much as I would love some 6 grand high ends I certainly cant afford those, I had seen these colour commands on usedlighting.co.uk for £500 and thought with them being a static light it'd be a safer bet buying 2nd hand?

 

Its all for rock gigs, no theatre work really. And I doubt I'd be able to afford a second hand expert, I've got up to £4000 so I'd probably just squeeze a pearl 2004 on that budget? Or a 2nd hand fat frog for and 2 robes witha bit of change for generics?

[gingertom]

** laughs out loud ** as much as I would love some 6 grand high ends I certainly cant afford those, I had seen these colour commands on usedlighting.co.uk for £500 and thought with them being a static light it'd be a safer bet buying 2nd hand?

 

Its all for rock gigs, no theatre work really. And I doubt I'd be able to afford a second hand expert, I've got up to £4000 so I'd probably just squeeze a pearl 2004 on that budget? Or a 2nd hand fat frog for and 2 robes witha bit of change for generics?

 

 

Don't forget that like running a scroller the Colorcommand requires a PSU, hence you have a fairly weighty additional cost there.

 

HTH

[niclights]

Yes, those are the same fixtures. Sorry, my mistake. Just checked quotes & it is Studio Command that is £6K+, the Colour Command list at just over £2K. £500 sounds like a good deal depending on state - there are still moving parts but nothing like a full moving fixture. As Tom points out they need ColorPower PSU which lists at approx £1500 but perhaps this is available S/H also?

 

** laughs out loud **, somehow I don't think you'd be finding a S/H Expert for a while seeing as no new units have been shipped yet!

 

I would feel confident on a Pearl purchase for the extra money, but I'm not trying to sell you one. It might well make more sense to go with a cheaper desk and get more Robe's at the moment. That one's down to you.

[mumbles]

Concerning the desk: it does depend very much what you want to use it for; yes, it has to be said a Fat Frog is a poor mans Pearl but I have yet to come across anything a Pearl can do a frog cannot ( if you put your minid to it ;o) ) Will you be using it for theatre or rock 'n roll or both?

The only thing I've really missed on my FatFrog, as opposed to a pearl, apart from the general smallerness or if, is an effects generator that can be applied to dimmer, CMY etc, instead of just to the position.

 

I'd say save your money and go for the Frog; invest in more lanterns then put the frog work.

Agreed, until you have more than a dozen fixtures (sounds like you're a way off owning that many), a frog will cope happily, and it comes down to whether you get on with the desk.

[Pete]

For my money,I'd have the studio spot 250's over a colour command.

 

You wouldn't want to dry hire colour commands to anyone,Where as.The SS250's are solid.

[afterworks]

Thanks for your replies guys. Have been on the FatFrog training day which was really good. I found the desk very approachable and picked up without any real difficulties.

 

I think that I'm going to leave buying any movers and just hire in as and when I need them. This way I can save money for now, by not having to buy them and not having to repair them. Also if I hire in it means I'll always have what I need, and I'll be able to get better kit than I can afford to buy.

 

So I think I'll just buy a desk, I've yet to go on the avolites desk, although rather excited to. Once I've been down to london for it I'll be able to judge whether or not the pearl is worth the extra money for myself, or whether to just stick with a fat frog.

 

While I was down at zero 88 I had a play on the frog 2, I didnt really get enough time to get my head round the possibilties so I just wanted to know what people think in comparison to the pearl? (as peter from zero 88 was kind enough to 'inform' me I'd be able to afford a 2nd hand frog 2 with my budget)

 

again I know the pearl and frog 2 are overkill at the moment, but I'm looking to learn and develop with whatever desk, and also future proof myself a little.

 

I know there is a thread already about the frog 2, but no one has really posted anything in a while so I guess I wanted to see what people are thinking about it now its been out longer?

 

cheers

[Paul J Need]

I still tyhink you can't really beat a Fat frog when using less than 12 movers. Great value for money, great to use, and it's GREEN! :))

[Ken Coker]

I still tyhink you can't really beat a Fat frog when using less than 12 movers. Great value for money, great to use, and it's GREEN! :))

 

Paul

 

I frequently want to beat a Fat Frog when using ANY number of movers with it. That's why I bring a Pearl with me when I work for you!!

 

KC

[andylights]

** laughs out loud **!