How does OH&S interfere with your work

[mumbles]

Ah, but (and I'll play devils advocate here), if I go into one of the schools where I maintain the lighting rig, and use their stepladder, only to have an accident, whose responsible.

 

Is it my fault due to something I've done wrong, or is it the schools for poor maintenance. Any insurer is going to claim it was the other party's fault, if there is enough reason for doing so.

 

Also, how can the school hope to ensure that anyone who comes in to use said access equipment is properly trained. I carry my PASMA card for temporary scaffold towers round with me, but not my certificate for ladders, or MEWPs.

 

In fact I would go as far as saying that I think that the idea is a good brilliant solution, and I will quite happily take a ladder of my own along, as it is a ladder that I know has been maintained and has never been damaged.

 

There is a point where this becomes stupid, such as with the MEWP, as I cannot take one along (read as don't have access to one) and without one cannot reach the roof at the centre of the hall. However, the school understands this, and I am allowed to use it, on the agreement that I use it as the manufacturers intend, and they keep it properly maintained.

 

The whole point of restricting the use of THEIR equipment is to keep me safe, and both me and the school out of a legal minefield.

[Tomo]

Ah, but (and I'll play devils advocate here), if I go into one of the schools where I maintain the lighting rig, and use their stepladder, only to have an accident, whose responsible.

Are you an employee or self-employed?

 

As an employee, they must supply and maintain the equipment needed to do your job.

As a self-employed contractor, you supply and maintain it.

 

However, as a worker, you have a duty to report anything that you think is unsafe to the relevant manager(s).

Unfortunately, a lot of people aren't secure enough in their jobs to bring that sort of thing up...

[mumbles]

Are you an employee or self-employed?

 

As an employee, they must supply and maintain the equipment needed to do your job.

As a self-employed contractor, you supply and maintain it.

Self employed, but in all the places I go where they enforce a policy such as this, employees are allowed, with the adequate training, to use the equipment. I had assumed on this basis, that all who had to bring their own were in the same position of being self employed, and engaged for the services by the venue.

[Colin]

We recently had a rather zealous H+S person appointed in our union. Among his waves of new introductions is the principle that anyone changing or checking a plug must have had formal training in the process preferably city + guild. Previously we taught people ourselves when it came to maintaining equipment and have been carrying out PAT tests ourselves with no formal qualifications. I would describe the training that we give out while not formal does bring people up to a competent standard.

 

Whilst not related to our industry he is also attempting to enforce risk assessments for social trips preformed by societies. :blink:

 

I am being naive here or does this all seem a little excessive?

[bruce]

I would describe the training that we give out while not formal does bring people up to a competent standard.

 

But who defines and/or verifies that competence? While an external PAT testing qualification may not give, in real terms, any better training than the ad-hoc training you do at present, it does produce a "paper trail" which should demonstrate that the people who have been on the course have had a formal grounding in the subject, rather than just being showed how to "press the button and wait for the display to say OK".

 

In practice, these working practices are often dictated by the people who define this competence - ie your insurers rather than the local H&S person.

[Stewart Newlands]

Good H&S should form part of the working culture IMO, it should help in the working process not hinder it, yes some times it can get in the way but if it makes you think about how to work in a better way it's a good thing. If you get a culture where every one is being careful, considerate for others and tidy, it makes a big difference.

 

This is essential when you get larger jobs that need to be completed fast with vast numbers of crew from many contractors. If you have tens of trucks indoors and over 1000 crew plus hoards of venue staff milling about all the contractors need to be working and communicating in a safe considerate and informed manner.

 

I want to be confident that I could walk a group of school kids or a non industry client around a site at any time during the build without worrying what may be going on and secure that all / any the teams would act in an appropriate manner to control the space they had in their charge at that moment.

 

If you can't do it safely think again scale it down or ask for more money so you can make it happen safely.

[paulears]

I can't think of any of my self-emplyed contacts who carry their own access equipment around with them - in most cases, nowadays the venue can provide paperwork to show theirs is safe, and simply do an assessment of you to show competence. This could be as simple as letting you go up the ladder/scope - whatever, and observing how you do it. If you show acceptable levels of competence and skill, then you get signed off. I've never been happy with somebody presenting a photocopy of an XYZ ltd training certificate, printed on a word template. Me - I like to observe people and make my own mind up. Then make a formal record of name, date, activity and the evidence of competence - observation is quite acceptable.

[Paul J Need]

Look around the forum and you'll find scary samples by the handful, common sense if becoming less and less 'common'.

I do wonder whether the falling standards of "Common Sense" is due to over prescriptive "H&S Rules". These include legislation that prevents one killing oneself, taking kids on adventurous training, using sharp scissors at school, jumped up Safety Nazis, and the truly sensible laws. Are young people unprepared to work at height safely because they no longer climb (and fall out of) trees?

 

Too early in the morning to try to answer any of the above!

 

 

Took the words right out of my mouth Andrew.

 

One cannot legislate for everything, and IMO just in the same way passing a driving test does not prove one is a good driver, just because someone has filled out a form or carried out risk assessment does not mean they are less likely to cause an accident through doing something complete silly.

 

Another question springs to mind: If something awful happens which is not listed on the RA; what happens?

[Colin]

I came across this web site earlier today which lists the details of stupid lawsuits and their outcomes as well as silly warning labels on products.

 

http://www.mlaw.org/index.html

 

It got me thinking though are lawsuits caused by the increasing HSE regulation?

[Roderick]

One cannot legislate for everything, and IMO just in the same way passing a driving test does not prove one is a good driver, just because someone has filled out a form or carried out risk assessment does not mean they are less likely to cause an accident through doing something complete silly.

I fully agree that you can't legislate for everything but disagree that a properly conducted RA doesn't reduce the chance of an incident.

 

Whilst incidents will always happen never mind what any law or regulation says, it is the awareness of existing risks that will reduce them becoming an incident. Unfortunately there are people out there who don't quite understand the purpose and concept of a RA and produce pages and pages of non-sense just to cover their arse, that is not going to help anyone, ever. Conducting a sensible RA, and I applaud the HSE in their approach, where the report is kept concise and shared with all staff at the induction will reduce incidents. Only information shared will improve anything, RA in a drawer is a waste of time and money.

 

I find inductions (or Toolbox Talks as we call them here) a great way to share relevant information before you start work. And don't get up in arms about 'I don't have time for that stuff', an induction shouldn't take more than 5-10 minutes. And if you hold them in the loading dock then all those so inclined can have their smoke at the same time. It doesn't involve a PowerPoint presentation with a questionnaire at the end, it is simply stating: this is what we'll do today, be extra careful with this and that and keep an eye out for anyone doing something that may harm them. The real bonus of this is that it gives people confidence to approach others if they see something not quite right. We all have to learn the ropes and we all will make mistakes, to have several other pairs of eyes around to stop us from doing something really stupid, and explain why, is when we will stop unnecessary incidents from happening.

And that is what it should be about, share and learn. Anything that is purely produced to stroke someone's ego or secure the next pay is a waste of time, paper and opportunity to improve the safety of us all.

[Paul J Need]

I think we are singing from the same song sheet here Roderick; once again it comes down to common sense and I follow pretty much the same process as you mention. Moreover, if the people working together all have commono sense they are instintively keeping an eye open for possible ricks, dangers and use of bad practice.

 

You did miss my main point though; what happens if something nasty happens and it's not on an RA, has not been covered by the induction.

[Roderick]

You did miss my main point though; what happens if something nasty happens and it's not on an RA, has not been covered by the induction.

 

I have started another thread (linky) to respond to your question.

It was getting a bit OT ;) .

 

Cheers